Tournament Value

[Jon Brakel]

I haven't been able to post since I posted Maddisen's birthday post but now I can again. I didn't want to continue to hijack Terry's tournament thread so I thought I'd start a new one. First off I'd like to say that I think Terry runs good events on good courses and I would gladly attend any of his tournaments if my body were able to play two rounds in one day. I think that players are looking for value in their tournament experience and some tournaments offer value in different ways than others. Terry does not run his events using the "IOS Model" and isn't that what makes humans great? We can think independently and do what we want to do in the way that we want to do it. Bruce thinks that the IOS way of doing things is great and he likes to point it out. I kind of take the Terry Calhoun approach to disc golf tournaments. I don't really care about payout too much. I really want to go to a tournament where the rules are fair and clear and the event as a whole is well run. Where there isn't a lot of waiting around on TDs that don't know what they're doing. Terry Miller runs the kind of events that I like to go to. He has a different approach to how he does payouts than the IOS, and I'm fine with that. Bruce is going to post whatever he feels like. I kind of admire it and it kind of pisses me off...at the same time! It makes me feel bad that I think Bruce is hurting the feelings of people that I like. People like Terry Miller. But Bruce adds so much to the equation of running events that I wouldn't trade him for someone else to join the IOS TD team. You take the good, you take the bad, you take it all and there you have...Bruce.

Terry was kind enough to post his financials from last year for the Rec division and you can review them below. I'd like to compare those to what we would do at an IOS for the same entry fee. I'd like to do this in an open communicative way to be open about the differences in how TDs can determine payouts without any further accusations of what is better and who is providing a better value at a tournament. Players can decide that with their attendance.

This is part of Terry's post...


Last year I charged $15 for the Rec division.

I took out $2 per person for the PDGA fee (as required)
I took out $1 per person for the insurance and course rental costs (even though $1 each wasn't enough)
I took out $10 per person for the merchandise voucher they received
I didn't take out for any other expenses including the not so impressive trophies

That means the total pool of money left in that field was $2 per person x the 22 people in it.  That's $44 that had to get paid out to 11 spots.  STRAIGHT OFF THE PDGA PAYOUT TABLE it read as the following:

$6
$6
$5
$5
$4
$4
$4
$3
$3
$2
$2

I added a couple of dollars here or there but I don't think that totaled more than $20 extra dollars.  Unfortunately I know that's not much but it is still more than 100% payout when I only have to payout 85% at a C-Tier.





The IOS payout example:

We have never offered the Rec division at a C tier IOS for $15. We've done $10 and $23 and above but never $15 so my comparison is strictly hypothetical. For our B tier events (and other events where we are giving a $15-20 player pack) a $15 entry fee is trophy only. But assuming we were doing a C tier $15 entry fee with a player pack, this is how we'd do it. (I've now changed the hypothetical player pack to $10 to match Terry's example. Sorry I missed that the first time but I wanted to re-do it so it really is comparing apples to apples). Accounting for the $10 player pack rather than the $15 player pack that I originally calculated for makes a big difference in payout and shows you the effect of a player pack on payout. I only took $7 per player out of the payout for the $10 player pack because we currently only take $10 out of the payout for the $15-20 player pack.

entry fee: $15

$0 taken out for $2 per person for the PDGA fee (it's not required that you take this out of the payout, just that you pay it to the PDGA)
$1 taken out for course rental but not insurance (insurance is only $50 for the weekend
$7 taken out for $10 player pack.
Nothing taken out for the dyed disc trophies.

This leaves $7 per player for payout. Based on Terry's example that would leave $154 in the prize pool for the division. 11 spots paid out:
1....22
2....20
3....18
4....17
5....15
6....14
7....12
8....11
9.....9
10...8
11...8

Like I said before I'm not disagreeing with the way that Terry runs his tournaments. I respect what Terry does and hope to be playing his tournaments again soon. I love to play a tournament that I don't have to help run! And I like a well run tournament on a good course even more.

Please comment, ask questions, etc. but please let's be adults. Don't attack people, just discuss if you'd like. If you can't help being mean then please don't post. Thanks! 

[Mukey]

I personally think I agree with you regarding payouts. My golf game isn't Pro level yet  , so me cashing isn't something that happens very often. So I too tend to focus on other things as far as my tournament experience. Having things well organized, OB easily defined, no confusion regarding tees to use, etc. all play a part. Also, as anyone who knows me is aware, my stomach rules me mostly, and free food is always a shining spot in my tourney memories.

Hope this is a bit more cool headed than my post on the tourney thread, not trying to ruffle any feathers, and after reading Jon's post I realized I wasn't adding anything constructive myself.

[Bruce Brakel]

The difference is we made a $1.50 off every rec player in Jon's scenario.  Terry made $6 a player.  I think taking 40% of the entry fees for the TD is a bit steep. 

This year's tournament is even steeper.  It costs $30 to play Rec if you register on-line.  $35 if you register at the park.  You're going to get a $20 value player pack and no payout.  So the TD has expenses of

$10 per player for player packs  [We're all buying our merch at 50 cents on the dollar]
$_2 per player for PDGA player fees
$_2 per player for sanctioning and insurance [assuming 50 total players]
$_2 per player for trophies
$_3 per player for course use fee [It may be less if they have an off-season rate.]

So the TD is making $16 here per player on rec walk-ups, about out 40% of the entry fee as a house rake. 

At the Kenosha IOS the breakdown on a $35 entry fee goes like

$_7.50 per player for $15 player packs
$_3.00 per player for PDGA player fees
$_1.00 per player for sanctioning and insurance [assuming 125 total amateurs]
$_1.00 per player for trophies
$_2.00 per player for course use fee
$_1.50 per player for CTPs, Flight Life or Most Improved
$12.50 per player for 25 Brass per player to payouts

So we're making about $6.50 on a $35 entry fee. 

Terry's formula will net him about $900 on 50 amateurs.  Our formula will net us about $900 on 150 amateurs.  I think if Terry is making as much as we are, but he is doing one-third the work, clearly he is three times smarter.  If he has his minions working for the love, and not for a cut, he's nine times smarter. 

[can't putt]

I attended last year's Cold Turkey and was admittedly a little miffed at first at the rec. payout.  However, considering the $15 entry fee gets you trophy only at an IOS event in retrospect the payout wasn't that bad.

I have attended three events this year with Terry as the TD; The Wisconsin Tour Warm-up, The GMO, and AM-Worlds.  I had a great time at all three.  All three were well organized, smoothly run, and offered experiences relative to their tier.  To me, I recieved good value for my entry fee.  With that in mind, I look forward to playing in many more of Terry's events.

Within the past 11 months I have participated in tournaments run by 10 different TDs or groups.  All had something different to offer, and some were certainly better than others, but Terry's were all top notch.

While you guys are NOT competing for my tournament dollar, if I had to choose between, for example, this year's GMO and this year's IOS Rockford I would choose the GMO.  Terry must be doing something right.

[Jon Brakel]

I attended last year's Cold Turkey and was admittedly a little miffed at first at the rec. payout.  However, considering the $15 entry fee gets you trophy only at an IOS event in retrospect the payout wasn't that bad.

That's why I couldn't compare our B tier payout with Terry's C tier payout because we would probably lose money on a $15 entry fee for a B tier. At a B tier we are paying a dollar more of your entry fee to the PDGA ($3 fee for B tier vs. $2 fee for C tier) and $25 more for sanctioning the tournament.

[SERG]

How are PDGA fees paid if it is not coming from the player's entry fee? Sponsorship?

That is one of the things we've tried to do with the Prairie Open. Find enough sponsors to pay the per player fees as well as add cash to payout (which works itself out as added cash becasue you aren't taking the fee out).

I don't know if anyone has noticed in the past two years, but when registering online we have never charged a fee for online registration...where did the fee go? Our TD paid for it out of his own pocket and considered it a donation (but never reported it as added cash to make payout's look bigger).

After working on the Prairie Open committee and reading about other tournament standards, etc set up by the PDGA I understand the payout a little more than before. I was always wondering why the payout was fairly low in an event where there was a decent amount of players. Now I understand and try to explain to others the reasons for payouts.

Here is what I don't understand (at least completely understan):
Cash price vs. "Funny Money/Brash Cash/etc." price
Could someone explain this to me? By no means am I trying to ridicule fees for merchandise by some vendors, I just don't understand it. If merchandise is bought at wholesale prices (which can be at 50%) why are the "award money" prices more expensive?

I wouldn't continue to play events if I didn't like how they were run. I've playe some events and haven't gone back because I wasn't happy with the overall event from organization to payout. Both Terry and the IOS offer different things that appeal to me. Thanks to both for offering great events!

[stpitner]

Take a peek at what Bruce had noted for Kenosha IOS breakdown

$_7.50 per player for $15 player packs
$_3.00 per player for PDGA player fees
$_1.00 per player for sanctioning and insurance [assuming 125 total amateurs]
$_1.00 per player for trophies
$_2.00 per player for course use fee
$_1.50 per player for CTPs, Flight Life or Most Improved
$12.50 per player for 25 Brass per player to payouts

I emphasized the two areas that discuss brass.  You can see right there that the cash equivalent of $15 brass is $7.50 cash for player packs.  The equivalent of 25 brass is $12.50 cash for payouts.  That means that brass value is worth 50% that of cash value.  So if you were to buy a Star Innova disc at $18 brass or funny money, in both cases (Bruce and mine) we are reimbursed 50% of that $18 price tag in cash (so $9).  That works out to essentially paying the vendor back the wholesale cost of the disc.  The vendor then later has to pay taxes based on what they received in cash payback and also account for the approximate 20 cents per disc cost for shipping & handling to get the disc from the disc manufacturer.  When you factor in these costs, the vendor makes no money on discs purchased with funny money/brass.  In many cases we lose a little bit of money per disc.

The reason cash prices might be different and/or cheaper is because the cash value is of higher value.  The merchant for once actually makes a little money for selling a disc instead of just clearing space to bring in different inventory.

It's a little confusing because not all TD's do this.  Hopefully by reading this the realization is made that you're receiving discs for essentially wholesale prices when using your brass or funny money.

[CEValkyrie]

If you are a tournament direcotor and the player base respects what you are doing, players will continue to play if payouts are somewhat fair. Earning that respect is not easy and involves many factors. Posting negative things about other tournament directors and events does not help that respect factor.


As a pro my expectations about value have changed.

1. 100% of the cash is paid back to the division.
2. Added cash is a big bonus for pros.
3. Player pack. I don't want a player pack if it's going to take away cash from my division. I'll take anything donated. Getting to pick my own player pack is a big bonus. Getting an ugly t-shirt and a disc I won't use sucks.
4. CTP's, getting a chance to shoot for a few ctp's is a bonus.
5. Playing a great course is a bonus.
6. Having a free lunch provided is a bonus.
7, Getting a trophy is a bonus.

[SERG]

Thanks, Scott.

So in the early years of the Prairie Open when a vendor was reimbursed $.90 for  every $1.00 they were making decent money...40% more than the brass cash concept?

[Jon Brakel]

How are PDGA fees paid if it is not coming from the player's entry fee? Sponsorship?

Here is what I don't understand (at least completely understan):
Cash price vs. "Funny Money/Brash Cash/etc." price
Could someone explain this to me? By no means am I trying to ridicule fees for merchandise by some vendors, I just don't understand it. If merchandise is bought at wholesale prices (which can be at 50%) why are the "award money" prices more expensive?

The answers to those two questions is the word that I made up to explain the whole convoluted disc golf amateur payout scheme:
MERCHASTRAVAGANZA
If you are your own vendor for a tournament or your vendor is a partner in the tournament then you can pay for fees and other costs with the vendor profit money. This is the way that the IOS pays for PDGA fees, CTPs, good player packs, Bruce's gasoline, my motel, etc. without taking away from the payout. The Merchastravaganza system has also been used by other TDs as a way to generate "added cash" for pros or profit for professional TDs.

[skipache]

the prairie open has REALLY good payouts, one of my favorite events on this years tour!

[tacimala]

I don't know if anyone has noticed in the past two years, but when registering online we have never charged a fee for online registration...where did the fee go? Our TD paid for it out of his own pocket and considered it a donation (but never reported it as added cash to make payout's look bigger).[

Not to bust on you in any way Serg, but from what I've understood, Google Checkout has been running a free promotion since it's inception and none of the money is taken out. I am really surprised that more organizations aren't taking advantage of this. I was impressed with that when I saw the site and pre-reg'd for the Prairie Open.

[stpitner]

paypal used to be free for everything too.  Probably only a matter of time for Google checkout, but sounds like something worthwhile to check out while it is still free

[Jon Brakel]

I made a big mistake in my calculations. Terry did a $10 player pack (he calls it a $10 merchandise voucher in his post) and my first calculations for an IOS comparison were for a $15 player pack. I did that reflexively because that's what we do all the time. But I'm trying to compare apples to apples so I changed the hypothetical IOS C tier player pack to $10 and we get a different number for the payout the pool. I changed my original post to reflect this.

Terry's example exceeds the minimum PDGA standards and the IOS example would exceed it as well. I don't have any problem with paying to play a well run tournament and I hope to be able to play the Cold Turkey next year.

[discglfr]

Now this is a great way to discuss this topic.  I do apologize for getting a little cocky in the other thread.  Sometimes I try to remain cool but my passion gets in the way during heated responses whenever I'm getting 'attacked' (directly or indirectly).

I've read this thread twice now and I think I still come to the same conclusion that I had a year ago. 

The difference between the "IOS Model" and *most* TDs is the fact that the IOS ultimately gives away merch at their wholesale cost.  When we wade through all of the numbers, all the figures, and all of the funny money and cash stuff that's what everything ultimately comes down to right?  You giving away a $10 player's pack at $7 is really the main difference in the payout.

I think that is fine and dandy for how you guys want to do things.  I (as well as many others) do not see the point in doing that.  That's pretty much it in a nutshell.  I don't think that makes me a bad TD or a money grubbing jerk (my words - no one has directly accused me of that on this board yet) but instead it is the way that most events are run across the country.  If people think I'm getting rich from doing this then that's where the real problem comes in because I don't get to profit hundreds or thousands of dollars from events.  Instead this might be the case:

I take some of the normal wholesale to retail profit and:

Usually treat some or all of my event staff to breakfast and/or lunch and / or dinner (add that up)
I occasionally cover an entry fee for a staff member or major event volunteer
I invest it into things like ScorePoints, pop up tents, water jugs, etc.
I pay for other expenses like photocopies, pencils, trophies
I commonly give deals left and right when people are a dollar or two dollars short on a purchase
I pay for gas which can be anywhere from $30 to $90 (most events are not in my backyard)
CTP's, side games, online registration raffle prizes, etc

These are just a handful of things that immediately come to mind that I typically have to pay for being a single person TD.  Now I realize that the "IOS model" has similar expenses and some of those you pay out of pocket.  Again, I think that is great and fine and dandy.  It's just not the way I do things.  I mention these things not because other TDs don't think about them but because most player's don't think about these costs.  These add up in a very significant way.  I'd love for some players to walk up to Matt Brock or Sergio this weekend and tell them they don't deserve a free lunch at the expense of the TD.  That would be a classic moment.

I have worked many years in the world of promoting disc golf.  It started nearly 10 years ago and it's increased year after year after year.  I do countless demos, instructions, designs, and other things for FREE.  Hundreds of hours each year are put into those endeavors.  So when all of the smoke clears and everything is said and done, I don't think it is crazy that I make $1, $2, or even $4 per hour when I host a disc golf tournament.  If anyone outside of the disc golf community wants to trade their salary for mine they are welcome to do so.

Anyway - I hope I have honestly and objectively given my side of the numbers.  I don't hide things when I run my events but I also can't afford to 'give away the farm' either.  I felt that I needed to explain the main differences here because my events are legit and they are run 'by the book' but they need to rely on standard mark ups to keep happening (until I get some major sponsors).

Thank you to everyone that has supported my events and more importantly shared their support on this board.  I do work hard to have the player in mind and I have listened as the years have gone on.  I am pretty close to exactly on time for everything that I post, I get stats online and submitted very quickly, I'm quick to respond via e-mail or phone calls, I keep things moving, and I always am trying new formats.  I also try to play on quality courses.  Most importantly, I'm always looking to be legit when I use a park for a disc golf event.  Most people don't realize it but being legit with a park department can be lots of extra work as well as lots of extra fees.  (I know IOS events do the same but events that don't hurt our sport more than they realize).

I have more to post but it will be in my next post because it's slightly off this topic but still related.

Thanks!

[Jon Brakel]

Happy Thanksgiving Terry! And thank you for sharing your views on running tournaments. Because we are TDs we share a lot of common interests and concerns so it's nice to discuss these sorts of things with you.

[chaos]

Someone needs to explain why you use funny money and why it isn't dollar for dollar with  cash . Is this used as a tool to report higher thatn actuall payouts to the PDGA? I don't know I ran a c tier tournament in terre haute  several years ago and didn't find it to be that much of an ordeal . After playing this game competitively for almost 15 years it seems to me that payouts have continued be diluted more and more . I think that as a TD you should donate your time !!!

[stpitner]

Someone needs to explain why you use funny money and why it isn't dollar for dollar with  cash . Is this used as a tool to report higher thatn actuall payouts to the PDGA? I don't know I ran a c tier tournament in terre haute  several years ago and didn't find it to be that much of an ordeal . After playing this game competitively for almost 15 years it seems to me that payouts have continued be diluted more and more . I think that as a TD you should donate your time !!!

Donate your time?  I don't think I'm ready to open that can of worms yet.

It's not dollar for dollar so that payouts can be higher.  What does that mean?  More poeple win more stuff, not less stuff.

Let's consider this for a moment:

I have $100 CASH to award to a 10 player field in funny money valued at dollar for dollar.  Payouts, based on the 2008 payout table, goes to the top 5 places:
1st) $30 funny
2nd) $25 funny
3rd) $20 funny
4th) $15 funny
5th) $10 funny

That equals $100 funny money at dollar for dollar value.

Now, let's say that funny money is worth $2 for every $1 cash (which is the case with brass).  Now for the SAME $100 CASH that I have available, I'm awarding out $200 funny money.  Payouts look like this:
1st) $60 funny
2nd) $50 funny
3rd) $40 funny
4th) $30 funny
5th) $20 funny

Pretty nice to win twice as much, is it not?  Here's the key component: disc prices are the same for both sets of payouts.  You're in first place.  Would you rather win $30 or $60 to spend on plastic?

Please do understand that it is the TD that is taking the hit on this, NOT the player.  You get more stuff, our payouts are better, and we break even when we reimburse ourselves for the stuff we sold.  Hmm... breaking even - sounds like a donation of time.  That's why it is very important to support your TD/Vendor with cash sales.

-Scott

[Tom McManus]

Someone needs to explain why you use funny money and why it isn't dollar for dollar with  cash . Is this used as a tool to report higher thatn actuall payouts to the PDGA? I don't know I ran a c tier tournament in terre haute  several years ago and didn't find it to be that much of an ordeal . After playing this game competitively for almost 15 years it seems to me that payouts have continued be diluted more and more . I think that as a TD you should donate your time !!!

Scott,

Where is the big-toothed smiley face at the end of your post, because you have got to be kidding.  TDs are one of the most important aspects of the sport. If you don't like the way a TD runs an event, speak with your $ and don't go. I think constructive criticism spoken directly to a TD one on one is fine. Ridiculous posts like this are worthless.

If someone wants to donate time, they should donate to The American Red Cross, The Salvation Army or The American Cancer Society.  Maybe even donate time at their local school.  But why should TDs donate time to a whiny ungrateful disc golfer?

There absolutely should be an opportunity to make some money and cover expenses when someone runs a tournament.

Perhaps you could raise Mother Theresa from the dead to run a tourney, but there would still be people who would try to run her off by bitching about the event.

[chaos]

Tom,
         I have been involved with running leagues and tournaments almost as long as you have and I don't have anything against people making money doing it. I personally believe that holding tournament and fleecing the people who come to it IS WRONG. The pdga having standardized payouts is great it just seems to me that using funny money and dual pricing in order to make your payouts look better seems rather dishonest . I don't think that you attacking me in this forum isn't very professional for a club vice president either. I personally have never made a dime off of running an event .