Rules

[CEValkyrie]

Scenario #1

2 Meter rule is in effect. Play A throws into tree and get stuck above 2 meters. Player B marks and throws his 2nd shot. Player A walks to his lie. Gets ready to mark his lie and a big gust of wind knocks his disc out of the tree.

Penalty-> Yes or No.
Why->


Scenario #2

Player A throws his drive. His disc is clearly in bounds laying flat on the gravel. Player B throws his drive. Player A is walking to his lie and a big gust of wind flips it up like a coin into the road OB.

Out of Bounds?
Penalty-> Yes or No.
Why?

[mirth]

#1 - No penalty as the player hadn't yet marked his lie & made the throw.
#2 - Yes, OB. Penalty shot assessed. Same reasons as above.

[CEValkyrie]

#1 - No penalty as the player hadn't yet marked his lie & made the throw.

Ding Ding.
Secnario #1
Rule 803.03--C

[pickax]

#1 - By 803.08.C, no penalty. Pretty clear cut case.
#2 - By  803.03A, the lie isn't established yet. Therefore it's OB. Now what if the player was using his thrown disc to mark the lie and it is blown away. By the same rule it should be replaced (no OB). So... If the player had made it clear that he was using his thrown disc as a marker prior to the wind tossing it, then I would rule he wasn't OB. Either way, it would behoove the player to not be throwing a 100 gram disc on a windy day.

Addendum: If the player weasels out of the OB in #2 by using his disc to establish his lie, he is forgoing the repositioning of up to 1m away from OB.

[Mukey]

#1 can be taken on of two ways. Generally I'd agree with Mirth's answer, but looking at the rules online:

C. No penalty shall be incurred if the disc falls, unassisted by a player or spectator, to a position less than two meters above the playing surface before the thrower arrives at the disc. The thrower may not delay in order to allow the position of the disc to improve.

So if we were playing strict rules, it'd still be a penalty.

Mike, you letting up on the strict rules interpretation you're known for?   


I had a weird answer for #2. If a disc is thrown into water, we wait for current & wind to take it where it may. However, the interference rules states that a disc may be moved back to it's original location, and doesn't state if it was moved by a person or nature originally. That's a tough one.

[Chainmeister]

My initial reaction is the same as Mirth's. However, the player is allowed to chose to play it where it lies without putting down a marker. Once the disc comes to rest isn't it being marked by the disc itself until and unless the player choses to place a mini?  Thus, if its a very windy day and the disc comes to rest inbounds, can the player yell out, "I am playing it from the disc and not playing the mini."? Otherwise, there would be an incentive to discourteously, run to your disc while the others are playing to get yer mini down.
803.03  Marking the Lie  
A. After each throw, the thrown disc must be left where it came to rest until the lie is established by the placing of a marker. This can be done by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface between the hole and the disc, directly in line with the hole, on the line of play, touching the thrown disc. A player may instead choose, without touching or repositioning the thrown disc, to use the thrown disc as the marker. The marker may not be moved until the throw is released. A marker inadvertently moved prior to the throw shall be returned to its correct location

[pickax]

Chris, I have to admit I didn't read Brett's original question #1 close enough. If the player had marker in hand and was setting it down, then yes the penalty probably should apply. In situations like this, how does one strictly define "arrives at the disc". I would probably go with the ruling that once it is declared over 2m by the thrower, then it is over 2m and the penalty should be applied. This is similar to a lost disc. Once a disc is declared lost, the penalty still applies even if the disc is found between the declaration and the next throw.

#2 is a conundrum that still requires more exploration.

[Dan Michler]

Scenario #2 is just ridiculous.  I've never seen the wind pick up a disc lying flat on the ground.  If it was that windy then you should seek shelter immediately due to the F5 tornado that is currently rocking the course and abandon your disc golf round.

I've had scenario #1 happen in my group and I did not and would not count it OB as long as the lie has not been marked.  If it had been marked but you hadn't thrown yet, then I'll still let it slide as long as there is no risk of you beating me

[Mukey]

I've had scenario #1 happen in my group and I did not and would not count it OB as long as the lie has not been marked.  If it had been marked but you hadn't thrown yet, then I'll still let it slide as long as there is no risk of you beating me

At least I know Dan'll be easy on the rules if I ever play against him

Chris, I have to admit I didn't read Brett's original question #1 close enough. If the player had marker in hand and was setting it down, then yes the penalty probably should apply. In situations like this, how does one strictly define "arrives at the disc". I would probably go with the ruling that once it is declared over 2m by the thrower, then it is over 2m and the penalty should be applied. This is similar to a lost disc. Once a disc is declared lost, the penalty still applies even if the disc is found between the declaration and the next throw.

#2 is a conundrum that still requires more exploration.

I always go by, it "looks" over 2m, but I won't be able to tell until I get there. I think the "before the player gets to the disc" was in case you were in a tall bush, where just getting to your lie might make the bush move & release your disc to a position under 2m.

[pickax]

If the thrower knocks it down before it can be checked, it is over 2m. If someone else knocks it down before ti can be checked, it wasn't over 2m. (803.08.D)

[Bruce Brakel]

I haven't bothered to look up the rules.  I'm pretty sure once the disc is at rest on the ground, your lie is established and if the wind or anything else moves your disc, it does not move your lie. 

On #2, Dan has never played Ludington.  I've seen the wind knock down the porta-potties and blow them across the parking lot.  I've seen the quintessential disc golf urban legend where the putt misses everything, goes past the basket and then gets blown back in.  They get wind like that in Ludington without getting tornadoes. 

I've probably seen the disc at rest picked up and blown away by the wind.  I threw a hyzer at a blind basket on the Goliath hole that plays off the bluff and over the road.  A few seconds after my disc landed out of sight it came back into view, blowing in the opposite direction.  We could not determine that it came to rest so we played it where it was when we found it. 

[Bruce Brakel]

I think the first sentence of 803.07(B) supports my position. 

[JCthrills]

Speaking of Ludington, happen to be headed up to the AJ Open Bruce?

[Bruce Brakel]

Seems unlikely.  Do you know what courses they are playing? 

[CEValkyrie]

I brought up Scenario #2 because this happened Tuesday night at Adler. A drive landed on the rocks along hole #1. The player approached the disc and prior to getting there the disc blew onto the road.

I thought the disc would be in bounds but I cannot find anything to support my case.

[pickax]

I think Bruce's ruling with 803.07.B best fits #2. It should be IB.

[roman]

Those winds on Tuesday sure were awesome. They did all sorts of funky things to the discs on hole 9. Up, down, up, down.

[JCthrills]

Seems unlikely.  Do you know what courses they are playing? 

I've heard most likely just beauty & beast but haven't seen anythign official yet. I plan on hitting up Leviathon at least on the way out of town Sunday.

[pickax]

Dave- The dangling worm comment you made on the PDGA boards piqued my interest. Would you care to elaborate?

[Chainmeister]

Dave- The dangling worm comment you made on the PDGA boards piqued my interest. Would you care to elaborate?

In Round 1 Jessie Cahill was lining up a putt on 15 and saw a worm dangling by a thread of something from a tree in front of him and in his line of site. He called it to our attention.  We were uncertain at the moment. He said that he thought he could not move something in front of his lie, which is correct, and proceeded to gather himself and drain the putt.  We then looked up the rule and the word is obstacle not object. I had recalled the word "object" and had said that he cannot move a stick but could shoo away a rabbit and questioned whether a live thing could be an object.  .  However, the word is "obstacle" and he can't physically move it.  Bruce confirmed this when he and I spoke after the round.  Nice concentration Jessie!  I now recall the dead animal thread on the PDGA board on a similar topic.