How to handle scoring issues with players and tournament officials

[Jon Brakel]

We had a scoring incident over the weekend that I would like to discuss. Although this is a real incident, let us treat it hypothetically. If you know any of the player's names, please do not use them or your post will be edited or deleted.

Players (note that this is NOT the order that they were listed on the card):
A: The player who allegedly turned in the wrong score.
B: The player who first brought the situation to our attention.
C: Player/witness
D: Player/witness

So, players A, B, C, and D have been grouped together in a four-some for the first round. When reporting scores, while player A was NOT scoring, player A reports that he had a 4. Player B asks if he got a 5 and players C and D also suggest that he got a 5. Player A agrees and a 5 is written down for that hole. After player A has had his turn scoring he hands the card off to one of the other players. Player B asks to review the card and sees that player A has written a 4 on a hole that player B alleges he threw a 5 on. This was not brought to the attention of player A at that time and this might have happened after the round.

Player B goes to turn in the card and starts to fill Brett in on some of his suspicions about Player A's score. Brett asks that he gather everyone from his group to discuss. Player B can only find players C and D. Player A has left the park for lunch. Brett, Bruce and I talk to the group. They all agree that Player A reported a 5 on a hole that he was scoring and wrote down a 4. They also say that several holes he had to be corrected when announcing his score and that at one point it was difficult to confirm his score because player A was using his cell phone. Based on this report we decide to disqualify player A but still want to talk to him.

Player A returns from lunch and refutes the allegations. We gather all four players to discuss with Brett and I. During the discussion, player B confirms without a doubt that player A called out a 5 and wrote down a 4 while he was scoring a particular hole. Player B is able to discuss where all of player A's shots went including a missed putt. Player C isn't sure that the missed putt was on that hole. It might have been the hole that player A did report a 5 on. Player D doesn't remember anything.

I thank all the players for helping us to discuss this like adults. I tell player A that he is not DQ'd. I officially warn him to not use his cell phone during play. I tell him that I do not think that he was cheating but I do think that he needs to pay attention to his score better and report with greater accuracy. I thank player B but explain that I can't make a ruling like this if no one else in the group can confirm. I also suggest that they bring these things up with the group as soon as they happen and if possible call for an official while they are still on the course. Brett shakes all their hands and tells them to try to not have any hard feelings about this.

Player A vindicates himself by shooting one throw better in the afternoon while playing with different players and no more complaints.

In this incident, what do you think was done right and what do you think could have been done better (by the players and/or the officials)?

Please discuss nicely. This is a learning exercise not an opportunity to attack anyone.

[pickax]

Player A's leaderboard card was marked DQ and visible to any that came early to check the board. It probably would have been better to not make that semi-public until after player A had a chance to refute the allegations.

[duain]

Player A was told about this during the round and became mad at the group and called his buddy to come walk with him cause he thought we were making up rules. I showed him a rule book about foot fouls within 30ft, no cell phones, have to mark your lie, and we had to repeatedly tell Player A and his friend to be quiet. We came as a group with complaints about score shaving and when faced with the culprit (after break) 2 players on the card stiffened up. Player A was warned that we were gonna turn this incident in and said he didn't care and left for lunch. He should've been DQ'd. This is like telling Player A if you cheat and get caught it's ok we'll let you play anyway. If you ask most the locals that know Player A, they would tell you that this person has been caught doing this before. The outcome of the situation was sad and I know by sitting in the crowd and listening a lot of people are disappointed at the fact he was allowed back in. Player C was very sure what hole he missed the putt on and so was my self, as for the other Player he couldn't remember if it was the hole we were discussing or the other hole Player A was caught shaving strokes on (he had never played the course before and didn't know the number on the holes). Situations like this suck for all involved, but when you have a group that comes to you with complaints of cheating and the cheating player is allowed to continue playing and cashs out it makes one rethink why do we have rules when they dont get followed.

[Jon Brakel]

Player A was told about this during the round and became mad at the group and called his buddy to come walk with him cause he thought we were making up rules. I showed him a rule book about foot fouls within 30ft, no cell phones, have to mark your lie, and we had to repeatedly tell Player A and his friend to be quiet. We came as a group with complaints about score shaving and when faced with the culprit (after break) 2 players on the card stiffened up. Player A was warned that we were gonna turn this incident in and said he didn't care and left for lunch. He should've been DQ'd. This is like telling Player A if you cheat and get caught it's ok we'll let you play anyway. If you ask most the locals that know Player A, they would tell you that this person has been caught doing this before. The outcome of the situation was sad and I know by sitting in the crowd and listening a lot of people are disappointed at the fact he was allowed back in. Player C was very sure what hole he missed the putt on and so was my self, as for the other Player he couldn't remember if it was the hole we were discussing or the other hole Player A was caught shaving strokes on (he had never played the course before and didn't know the number on the holes). Situations like this suck for all involved, but when you have a group that comes to you with complaints of cheating and the cheating player is allowed to continue playing and cashs out it makes one rethink why do we have rules when they dont get followed.

Please refrain from arguing points that were not brought to the officials. My description of the events is all the information that the officials had been given.

The reason that he was allowed to play was because the only infraction that players B, C, and D were able to agree on once we had all four players together was that player A had used a cell phone and that it was distracting. At no time did any of the players indicate that player A had been warned for anything. Player C said that he was not sure which hole player A made the short missed putt for a 5. Player D did not remember anything. We only would have considered a DQ if we had the same story from at least two of the players.

I agree with Mike that the player's card should not have been marked DQ until we talked to the group together. Lesson learned. I've never had an incident where all 3 players were sure of the facts and then later 2 of them had a different story. I believe player B but I also have a hard time believing that player A was cheating. I think he isn't very exact with his counting and scoring. I think he doesn't care about being accurate. If he plays any other IOS events he will be watched.

[Dan Michler]

For those of you that haven't figured it out, 'Player A' is clearly Taylor Cimala.  Now we know how he shot a blistering 2nd round 55 at Am Nats, only to follow that with a 66 once a giant gallery was following the final grouping on Sunday.  Control yourself Taylor!  Cashing out in Recreational at the prestigious IOS#3 just isn't worth your soul!

[keitherboo]

I played with Player A the second round and did my best to keep an eye on what he was doing, but I'll admit I was pretty focused on my own round and there were times when I wasn't sure what he threw on a hole.  Not that I thought he threw different, just that I didn't know what he threw.  Every time I knew what he threw (at least 80% of the time), that was the score he reported.  I will say that when he had the card I watched every number he wrote down, and he wrote down all the correct numbers.

I will vouch for Jon's idea that whether he was cheating or not, he undeniably is not paying attention to exact numbers.  There was a hole in the round where I went OB and had a tough shot to get out and ended up with a circle 5.  Everyone else on the card got a 3.  After the round, scorecard in hand, he asked "did everyone 3 that hole?".  It was late in the round and because we were playing for trophies, I just think he should have been more aware that he just gained 2 strokes on me.  Not a big mistake, I know, but considering the other evidence on the table, I think it proves the point that Player A just doesn't pay that much attention to scores or details.

[Jon Brakel]

...Situations like this suck for all involved, but when you have a group that comes to you with complaints of cheating and the cheating player is allowed to continue playing and cashs out it makes one rethink why do we have rules when they dont get followed.

I agree that this situation was frustrating. I imagine that it was doubly frustrating for you. It was probably the most frustrating call that I've ever made as an official. I have DQ'd players and warned them and given penalties. I have no problem with upholding the rules of the sport. That should be evident since player A was listed as DQ'd after we heard player B, C, and D's complaints. We didn't write DQ in sharpie on his leader board card with the thought that we wouldn't be upholding that ruling. When Brett and I took player A to the side it was so that we could explain why he was DQ'd not really to find out if he should be. I was as surprised as anyone that players C and D were not as confident once they were asked to back player B's story in front of player A as they were when explaining it immediately after the round. At all IOS events I will do my best to ensure that all rules are followed but I need the help of the players.

[stpitner]

One thing to stress is to use the correct process in taking down scores.  Feel free to watch the other person writing down the scores.

The person taking down scores, always start with the person on the top of the card, ask them what they shot.  Repeat the number you heard as you write it down.  Ask the next person, and repeat this for everybody on the card.  Also announce what you're writing down for yourself.  Even if you knew what they shot, you can't just say "everyone 3?" because you could easily get a bogey get turned into a par just because everyone had already forgotten that you had an extra putt or approach in there.

No joke - I had a guy once say that he shot a 5 (he was clearly not keeping track), and I'm like... no, I counted, you shot a 9 (he had just started playing and was clearly not ready for a tournament).  Not often will you get people that try to shave 4 strokes off one hole, but it can easily happen.  You can't always keep track of others' scores for them though, you have your own game to worry about.

[pickax]

Would it be better to have gotten the stories from B, C & D individually? I'm of mixed thoughts. One is that it would prevent any sort of peer pressure and would hopefully get unbiased info, but on the other hand, sometimes you need multiple people to get the pieces correctly put together.

[Bruce Brakel]

I agree with Krupicka that his card should not have been up there on the leaderboard with a DQ until you talked to him.  Otherwise, I think the process was fine.  

A similar thing happened at a tournament I played two weeks ago.  A player on our card reported a 5 and wrote down a 4.  Later we confronted him and he changed the 4 to a 5.  At the end of the round he was alone with the card [my mistake, sort of, but also my intent, sort of] and he turned in a card where that 5 and another 5 had been erased and changed to 4s.

Anyway, the TD handled it pretty much exactly the same way, except he did not write DQ on the card, or leave the card in plain view on the leader board.  Also, the player's explanation was so implausible, the TD did not find it necessary to go to step 3, below.  

There is really no rule or competition standard for how to handle this type of situation.  The rules assume that rules disputes will be resolved on the course by the players, and that the player who doesn't like the resolution can appeal to the TD.  The rules don't say what to do when that process breaks down, or how to proceed on an appeal when that process is followed.

I think a good process for an accusation of cheating is,

(1) After a rules related accusation is made, assemble as many of the witnesses as are present and see if the others will agree on the facts.  

(2) If the other players are confirming enough facts to merit further inquiry, the TD should confront the rule violator.  At this point, the rule violator is either going to confess or make up a wildly implausible story and you can DQ him.  Or he's going to have some innocent version of the facts.  At this point, depending on the violation, sometimes it might make sense to offer to allow the player to voluntarily withdraw from the tournament without a DQ.  This happened at a major a few years ago and it worked as well as any compromise ever works.

(3) If the player has a plausible innocent explanation for what happened, or a version of the facts that does not support a violation, then you have to have the big pow-wow with the accuser, accused and witnesses all present.  

In this case you went to step 3 and witnesses backed down.  I think it was the right process and the right result under the circumstances.

Some TDs go straight to Step 3.  I don't think this is effective because the accusation and defense process interferes with fact-finding.  Why go through the stress and ill feelings of confronting someone if the other players on the card are going to say it didn't happen that way at all?  Going straight to step 3 makes more sense if it is an appeal where they have made a group ruling on the course and the player then played a provisional, or could have if he had thought to do so.  

Going forward, at prior IOS tournaments, at 2004 Worlds and at certain Michigan tournaments, some TDs have made a point of saying something tactful to the players in that player's group to ensure that there will be vigilance in keeping accurate scores or following certain rules that were the subject of the previous controversy, but taking care not to make an accusation that previously was not found supported.  We did this at a Rockford tournament as I recall, after there had been a specific accusation made against a player at a previous non-IOS tournament.  

[duain]

Would it be better to have gotten the stories from B, C & D individually? I'm of mixed thoughts. One is that it would prevent any sort of peer pressure and would hopefully get unbiased info, but on the other hand, sometimes you need multiple people to get the pieces correctly put together.

actually you and brett did here from us individually before break. my self 1st then another player while i went and got the other player to explain what happened, then you guys talked to us as a group before and after break.

[duain]

The reason that he was allowed to play was because the only infraction that players B, C, and D were able to agree on once we had all four players together was that player A had used a cell phone and that it was distracting. At no time did any of the players indicate that player A had been warned for anything. Player C said that he was not sure which hole player A made the short missed putt for a 5. Player D did not remember anything. We only would have considered a DQ if we had the same story from at least two of the players.

we did note the other violations to brett before the break. Player c and my self both continually agreed on the missed putt and on the hole it was missed on, while Player D agreed but didn't know the hole number cause he hadn't been here before. if you remember correctly you said to keep him DQ'd because you had the group agreeing on that particular shot, but Brett said he would rule it as a player and allow Player A to continue even though Player A admitted to the missed putt. the cel phone thing was brought up after the fact as a reminder.

[Jon Brakel]

The reason that he was allowed to play was because the only infraction that players B, C, and D were able to agree on once we had all four players together was that player A had used a cell phone and that it was distracting. At no time did any of the players indicate that player A had been warned for anything. Player C said that he was not sure which hole player A made the short missed putt for a 5. Player D did not remember anything. We only would have considered a DQ if we had the same story from at least two of the players.

we did note the other violations to brett before the break. Player c and my self both continually agreed on the missed putt and on the hole it was missed on, while Player D agreed but didn't know the hole number cause he hadn't been here before. if you remember correctly you said to keep him DQ'd because you had the group agreeing on that particular shot, but Brett said he would rule it as a player and allow Player A to continue even though Player A admitted to the missed putt. the cel phone thing was brought up after the fact as a reminder.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree about what happened. I heard as clear as day when Brett asked specifically of player C if he was sure that it was the hole where he missed the putt and he said that he wasn't positive. Brett and I agreed with the ruling together. We've worked so long together that you might not have caught it but Brett said something into my ear that boiled it down and I agreed.

But I am glad that we are discussing it. I think I've learned something from every DQ I've given except for the unsportsmanlike conduct DQ at Rockford a few years ago. That one was a no brainer. I just told the guy he was done and to leave the park and then listened to him swear and yell as he left.

Please don't let this incident keep you from reporting future infractions. I think as a TD I have to give the benefit of the doubt to the accused and I have to have a preponderance of the evidence against him in order to DQ him. I don't think that I need to know without a shadow of a doubt but I should think that there is more evidence than not.

[pdga#7648]

We had a scoring incident over the weekend that I would like to discuss. Although this is a real incident, let us treat it hypothetically. If you know any of the player's names, please do not use them or your post will be edited or deleted.

Players (note that this is NOT the order that they were listed on the card):
A: The player who allegedly turned in the wrong score.
B: The player who first brought the situation to our attention.
C: Player/witness
D: Player/witness

So, players A, B, C, and D have been grouped together in a four-some for the first round. When reporting scores, while player A was NOT scoring, player A reports that he had a 4. Player B asks if he got a 5 and players C and D also suggest that he got a 5. Player A agrees and a 5 is written down for that hole. After player A has had his turn scoring he hands the card off to one of the other players. Player B asks to review the card and sees that player A has written a 4 on a hole that player B alleges he threw a 5 on. This was not brought to the attention of player A at that time and this might have happened after the round.

Player B goes to turn in the card and starts to fill Brett in on some of his suspicions about Player A's score. Brett asks that he gather everyone from his group to discuss. Player B can only find players C and D. Player A has left the park for lunch. Brett, Bruce and I talk to the group. They all agree that Player A reported a 5 on a hole that he was scoring and wrote down a 4. They also say that several holes he had to be corrected when announcing his score and that at one point it was difficult to confirm his score because player A was using his cell phone. Based on this report we decide to disqualify player A but still want to talk to him.

Player A returns from lunch and refutes the allegations. We gather all four players to discuss with Brett and I. During the discussion, player B confirms without a doubt that player A called out a 5 and wrote down a 4 while he was scoring a particular hole. Player B is able to discuss where all of player A's shots went including a missed putt. Player C isn't sure that the missed putt was on that hole. It might have been the hole that player A did report a 5 on. Player D doesn't remember anything.

I thank all the players for helping us to discuss this like adults. I tell player A that he is not DQ'd. I officially warn him to not use his cell phone during play. I tell him that I do not think that he was cheating but I do think that he needs to pay attention to his score better and report with greater accuracy. I thank player B but explain that I can't make a ruling like this if no one else in the group can confirm. I also suggest that they bring these things up with the group as soon as they happen and if possible call for an official while they are still on the course. Brett shakes all their hands and tells them to try to not have any hard feelings about this.

Player A vindicates himself by shooting one throw better in the afternoon while playing with different players and no more complaints.

In this incident, what do you think was done right and what do you think could have been done better (by the players and/or the officials)?

Please discuss nicely. This is a learning exercise not an opportunity to attack anyone.

in the 1st paragraph, you said that Player B was handed the card for reviewing, and saw Player A marked a 4 instead of the correct 5, but Player B didn't bring to anyones attention??  That's the 1st problem here. He should have brought that to EVERYONES ATTENTION at that point, so it could get corrected. If Player A then remarked it a 4 after, that would have been grounds for a DQ(dairy queen sounds awesome right now)  .  All levels of play should want to check scores every so often in a round, we do that in ADVANCED.  But if it waould have been brought up when Player B noticed, it could have been takin care of before the TD was involved. They do enough as it is, we should all be able to count and play fair at all times, no matter how HIGH the scores become!!

[duain]

in the 1st paragraph, you said that Player B was handed the card for reviewing, and saw Player A marked a 4 instead of the correct 5, but Player B didn't bring to anyones attention??  That's the 1st problem here. He should have brought that to EVERYONES ATTENTION at that point, so it could get corrected. If Player A then remarked it a 4 after, that would have been grounds for a DQ(dairy queen sounds awesome right now)  .  All levels of play should want to check scores every so often in a round, we do that in ADVANCED.  But if it waould have been brought up when Player B noticed, it could have been takin care of before the TD was involved. They do enough as it is, we should all be able to count and play fair at all times, no matter how HIGH the scores become!!

you need to read the rest of the comments because one of them explains it was brought up to all players before

[pdga#7648]

but if you noticed it reviewing the card before the round ended, you should have brought that to attention. If you reviewed card after the round, then my bad, I mis understood.

[Jon Brakel]

Duain, I apologize for either not hearing or not understanding all the information at the time of the incident. I guess another lesson learned is to slow down and listen more. It was unfortunate that player A did not join the group when the card was turned in because we could have taken more time to discuss the situation.

There is a lot of pressure to get the tournament ready for round two but I will endeavor to take more time in fact finding in the future. I think if there is any question about the scores from the rounds that all players should be required to turn in the card together and discuss with the TD. Unfortuneatly that is not in the rules.