BAD POLITICS

[bearmax]

Moderator's Note: Bearmax changed his entire original post making the replies seem completely irrational. I have added his original post to this post followed by his edited post.

Original post from: bearmax on Yesterday at 08:03:21 PM
     I attended the Halloween tourney at Rockford on 10/24 and had a blast.  Unfortunately, Discontinuum moved a tourney to the same date of Rockford's previously scheduled tourney.  Maybe an honest mistake! 
     
     It has come to my attention that one of the Discontinuum administrators has been using his pull with the PDGA for personal gain.  He tried his best to deny sanctioning to Rockford because it coincided with the Joliet tourney.  I have been playing this game for over 20 years and I have enjoyed promoting the sport to anyone and everyone who may be interested in playing the greatest game on earth.  I spent a decade as the Tournament Director in Rockford and I have NEVER tried to "cut the throat" of another club or a fellow player.  I t goes against our basic principle, promoting the sport.

     This has had a disastrous effect on some players who have been faithful followers of your club and it's tournaments.  As a rule, disc golfers do not like politics.  Keep this up and your "membership drive" may go the wrong direction.  I have already heard talk of a boycott by people in your area. This is just a piece of advice from an old TD that has been around the block a couple of times.
 
*****************************************************************************

   My posting yesterday was not meant to start trouble but to avoid complications in the future.  I would never boycott your club.  Do not shoot the messenger or try to imply that anyone else is responsible for my words or actions.  I was just passing along information that I heard from other people that may be detrimental to both organizations.  The rumor of a boycott was enough to concern me.  Whatever is going on with people of more authority than myself needs to be addressed, that was my message.
 
     I have been involved with promoting the sport for a long time and my posting was meant to be informational.  I will apologize for be too direct or harsh to anyone in particular but that is how I get my point across.  People will not respond to those who come across being soft or indirect. I say what I mean and mean what I say.  I hide behind nothing.

     I would like for all organizations across the area to correspond and work together.  Jason hit the nail on the head.  There have been an honest mistake in scheduling.  I stated this in my original posting.  I stayed in constant communication with fellow TDs throughout the area during my tenure in the 1990's.  Things have changed and now have become competitive between clubs.  The competition should stay on the course.

     I have always had a good relationship with fellow golfers.  I don't want my posting to be a problem.  I should have kept some information which I passed on to myself.  I should not have assumed that any particular party or parties are responsible.  I will again apologize for that.  If Discontinuum Administration wishes me to never post again, I will honor that request.  Some acquired information is best kept to myself.

                                                                                      Barry Maxwell , GRABM member.

[Bruce Brakel]

[Barry Maxwell has amended his post to include his identity, so naturally I will amend mine.  If Barry Maxwell was previously well known by his board name bearmax, I apologize for my offensive remarks.  Hopefully the moderator will not feel a need to restore my intemperate and flu induced remarks!]

[CEValkyrie]

     I attended the Halloween tourney at Rockford on 10/24 and had a blast.  Unfortunately, Discontinuum moved a tourney to the same date of Rockford's previously scheduled tourney.  Maybe an honest mistake! 
     
     It has come to my attention that one of the Discontinuum administrators has been using his pull with the PDGA for personal gain.  He tried his best to deny sanctioning to Rockford because it coincided with the Joliet tourney.  I have been playing this game for over 20 years and I have enjoyed promoting the sport to anyone and everyone who may be interested in playing the greatest game on earth.  I spent a decade as the Tournament Director in Rockford and I have NEVER tried to "cut the throat" of another club or a fellow player.  I t goes against our basic principle, promoting the sport.

     This has had a disastrous effect on some players who have been faithful followers of your club and it's tournaments.  As a rule, disc golfers do not like politics.  Keep this up and your "membership drive" may go the wrong direction.  I have already heard talk of a boycott by people in your area. This is just a piece of advice from an old TD that has been around the block a couple of times.

Are you PHUCKING kidding me? What event are you talking about that DISContinuum scheduled? I hate to be the one to break it to you but no one ever knows what events are scheduled in Rockford.

I assume you are talking about me with that PDGA topic. Personal gain? What gain is that? It's my job to schedule PDGA events with no conflicts. Trust me. I did not try my best to deny sanctioning. I could have done that with no questions asked from the PDGA. Had I known some ass was going to post a bunch of bullshit here  I would have taken care of that. Thank Dana Vichich, the tournament director of the Joliet Pro/Am Championships for allowing the sanctioning of the Rockford Doubles this weekend. I put it in his hands. A Pro/Am B-Tier that had been scheduled has priority. Sorry if I was doing my job. It's unfortunate people had choose between 2 events this weeked. Joliet was one of the few 2 day events in Illinois and $1300 added cash. Last, there is nothing like waiting until several weeks before  inquiring about sanctioning.
There is more discussion here.
http://foxvalleymetrodiscgolfclub.com/forum/index.php?topic=1335.msg10773#msg10773

Last, i'm really tired of dealing with the Rockford issue. There seems to be some gay beef every year with Rockford. Do you guys have a hard on for us? I think it's time I change my philospy to start boycotting Rockford. Take a look at the Grabm Classic. http://www.pdga.com/tournament-results?TournID=9304#Open
I think that # can be cut in half next year by getting the Chicagoland Area golfers to attend a sanctioned doubles event the same weekend as Rockford's Sanctioned events. That sounds tasty!

Brett Comincioli
#19325
PDGA IL State Coordinator
DISContinuum DGC President

[Bruce Brakel]

I think as state coordinator you should just put your foot down and say, "No more sanctioned tournaments scheduled on the same date until this state has a lot more sanctioned tournaments in a year than 26."  There's no reason why a C-tier should be stepping on a B-tier, or Channahon on the same weekend as an A-tier, when you have 26 full weekends open and several more half weekend dates available in the year.  No A or B-tier TD should be asked to give up their weekend with a schedule as wide open as Illinois'.  If you have to sanction to run tournaments at your course, then you should participate in the process like a responsible adult instead of sending anonymous minions to stir up trouble after the fact. 

[stpitner]

Bear,

I'm not sure if I have met you personally before or not, but first, thanks for running events.  Second, we seriously need to clarify some information that has been incorrectly told to you.  Please read this post entirely as it explains everything.  I don't have an older version of the Illinois tour schedule handy, but at the minimum back in July the tour calendar had a Joliet event scheduled this weekend.  This document can be found at this post:
http://discontinuum.org/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=4368.0

Brett, as the state coordinator, sent out emails starting in November or December 2008 to all TD's that ran a sanctioned event in 2008.  The email started asking for dates that would be reserved for 2009 tournaments.  As a result of these emails, two events were scheduled - one on the weekend of October 17th/18th, and the other on October 24th/25th.  It was probably close to the end of January or February that both of these events had been scheduled and weekends reserved on the PDGA schedule.  I had the event for the 17th-18th at a TBD course, and Jason Rose was originally scheduled to be the TD for the 24th/25th in Joliet

As the year progressed, it became apparent that I was not going to be able to do what I had hoped for the 17th/18th and run an event at a 18-hole temp course.  At the same time, it was apparent that Jason was not going to be available to TD the event in Joliet.  After sending out a couple emails and communicating with a couple people, I decided to drop my event on the 17th and assume TD responsibilities along with Dana V. as head TD for the Joliet tournament.  I did NOT move my event from the 17th to the 24th.  That is an COMPLETE misunderstanding based on one sentence that I said in Sterling on the 17th.  Yes, I helped run a PDGA event on a different weekend than I originally planned, but the event had been scheduled for months at that point.

In no way were we trying to hinder your event.  For most of us, I don't think we even found out about the event in Rockford until maybe 2 or 3 weeks ago?  Because of the close proximity of events, I think it's awesome that Brett contacts the TD that scheduled the event first to make sure it's ok to let someone else run another event nearby.  I was told that you have run this event on the same weekend for the past years - which is fine and dandy.  However, it had not been sanctioned before that.  It doesn't matter if that's the same weekend, when it's not on the PDGA schedule, another PDGA event is likely going to be scheduled on the same weekend.  Last year I'm presuming that if you have run the same event on the same weekend, then the Joliet Pro Championship was a sanctioned event that also ran on the same weekend as yours.

When the scheduling starts to happen for 2010, I highly recommend you put in a request right away for that weekend.  That's absolutely fine.  You'll get that weekend, and Brett will tell people to pick a different weekend so that everybody from this area will attend your event and not have to pick and choose.  There was an Illinois tournament or large tournament in nearby towns (Kenosha, WI & Lemon Lake, IN for example) on almost every weekend from Mid-April through the end of October.

In order to keep track of all of these tournaments - the PDGA has state coordinators.  They do not check the schedule for you on B and C-Tiers.  That's why on the sanctioning agreement it asks if you checked the date with the state coordinator.  That person checks the tour schedule to make sure it's an ok weekend to run the event.  Brett ran and was elected to that position.  He's done a fantastic job at it so far.  I would appreciate it greatly if you would respect the amount of work that he puts in to make sure that Illinois has an organized, excellent tournament schedule each and every year.

Thanks,
Scott
a fellow TD.

[stpitner]

I think as state coordinator you should just put your foot down and say, "No more sanctioned tournaments scheduled on the same date until this state has a lot more sanctioned tournaments in a year than 26."  There's no reason why a C-tier should be stepping on a B-tier, or Channahon on the same weekend as an A-tier, when you have 26 full weekends open and several more half weekend dates available in the year.  No A or B-tier TD should be asked to give up their weekend with a schedule as wide open as Illinois'.  If you have to sanction to run tournaments at your course, then you should participate in the process like a responsible adult instead of sending anonymous minions to stir up trouble after the fact. 

Bruce - Channahon in September was scheduled on that weekend because that was the only weekend in September and October where the course was available on back to back days and not in use for Cross Country.  We used Channahon today only because it was unavailable yesterday.  Hamilton's date was scheduled by the PDGA because it was an A-Tier.  There wasn't a whole lot of choice.  However,  Hamilton to Channahon is 232 miles apart.  Rockford to Joliet is only 103 miles apart.  That's a huge difference, and that's another factor that applied to the decision.  If Channahon was available on a different weekend than what Hamilton was on, believe me, I definitely would have gone with a different weekend.

Also - the typical tournament weather months (April - October) have only 31 total weekends.  Considering there were 23 of those 25 events in that range of months, it's not exactly that easy to schedule everything!  That doesn't even include the stuff that is just over the border (GMO, Homie, Prairie Open, RCR, etc)

[JaSoN G.]

Brett, Scott, Bruce and everyone else....I know Bear may be coming off a bit harsh and Bret's reactions are understandably harsh as well.  I am new fairly new to the area but have heard of tension between to the two clubs.  I know there was a bit of a misunderstanding that occured at the A tier last year.  I have seen this whole topic unfold for the past 3 weeks.  I truly believe that this was all caused by some bad communication.  Here is a few reasons why  I think things went wrong. 

Grabm has been holding this tournament for years and it has always been the weekend before Halloween.  Problem was that this month had technically 5 weekends.  So Dana and Scott assumed that the Rockford dubs would be the 31st leaving the 4th weekend open.  Grabm was told that the Joliet tournament couldn't move to the 3rd weekend because of the Sterling Dubs.  Alot of Grabm members rarely use the the forum of either clubs and really didn't post about this tournamnet.  I believe Grabm just assumed this weekend was set aside and due to the fact they didn't seek sanctioning until 3-4 weeks (they mat have sought it sooner just not sure) before this may have thrown things off.

I would hate to see two clubs boycotting each other.  I know some things in the past have occurred and this could be the final straw.  Bear and Brett both have sacrificed alot running and organizing tournaments and would hate to lose either of them from supporting this sport.  I see no problem in holding multiple sanctioned tournaments as long as we set a standard.  I do like the 100 mile rule personally.  This state is to big not to.  Before jumping the gun I hope you two can maybe talk personally or at least email each other.  Rockfords new layout is amazing and alot of IL could lose out by boycotting these courses because of some miss communication

[CEValkyrie]

Brett, Scott, Bruce and everyone else....I know Bear may be coming off a bit harsh and Bret's reactions are understandably harsh as well.  I am new fairly new to the area but have heard of tension between to the two clubs.  I know there was a bit of a misunderstanding that occured at the A tier last year.  I have seen this whole topic unfold for the past 3 weeks.  I truly believe that this was all caused by some bad communication.  Here is a few reasons why  I think things went wrong. 

Grabm has been holding this tournament for years and it has always been the weekend before Halloween.  Problem was that this month had technically 5 weekends.  So Discontinuum assumed that the Rockford dubs would be the 31st leaving the 4th weekend open.  Grabm was told that the Joliet tournament couldn't move to the 3rd weekend because of the Sterling Dubs.  Alot of Grabm members rarely use the the forum of either clubs and really didn't post about this tournamnet.  I believe Grabm just assumed this weekend was set aside and due to the fact they didn't seek sanctioning until 3-4 weeks (they mat have sought it sooner just not sure) before this may have thrown things off.

I would hate to see two clubs boycotting each other.  I know some things in the past have occurred and this could be the final straw.  Bear and Brett both have sacrificed alot running and organizing tournaments and would hate to lose either of them from supporting this sport.  I see no problem in holding multiple sanctioned tournaments as long as we set a standard.  I do like the 100 mile rule personally.  This state is to big not to.  Before jumping the gun I hope you two can maybe talk personally or at least email each other.  Rockfords new layout is amazing and alot of IL could lose out by boycotting these courses because of some miss communication

I am definitely frustrated for several reasons.

#1. Bruce, Jon, & I did not schedule an IOS event in 2009 to avoid any situations and allow Rockford the chance to develop their own PDGA events. That worked really good. Here I am again dealing with some gayness from Rockford.

#2. I did everything on my end as a state coordinator and took the steps to schedule a PDGA event. Rockford was able to schedule so what is the beef? I was only asked about the October 24th date. The first e-mail I received about the Rockford Doubles being sanctioned was on 9-30. The Joliet sanctioned event has been booked since last January. The weekends of 10-16/10-17 and 10-31/1-1 were wide open for a sanctioned event. No one asked. Had they asked they would have been immediately approved. I had no idea and i'd guess the majority of the disc golfers in Illinois had no idea Rockford hosted an annual doubles event the same weekend in October.

#3. I have no idea what the issue is with DISContinuum in this case. Discontinuum had nothing to do with any of this. Discontinuum assumed nothing. Discontinuum was not involved in any way. Discontinuum has not had an event since the club invite on September 9th. So how was Discontinuum involved ?

#4. I wanted to make it very clear to Bearmax this isn't politics. I'm not going to sit back and put on a fake smile. It would be nice if BearMax would get his information correct when posting. I am sick of dealing with this petty BS with Rockford.

[duain]

wow from one forum to the next. i can see both views here, since i was at the brunt of questions on the other forum. we still had about 62 players on saturday really the 2 tournys came out great. the big issues i thought were over untill i read this.

i think this all unfolded from Brett making the comment about letting dana ALLOW Rockford sanctioning(would have been better left unsaid). to most, that comment and others made were seen as a personal gain and playing favorites by Brett, by wanting more people at the event he was trying to cash out in.

SC is a tough job to coordinate events and make all happy. look on pdga sight at the 4 events ran in kentucky this past weekend, all about the same distance as joliet and rockford seems no problems there, they were all sanctioned by a SC.

The issue here is calling another club gay and say boycott them is very unprofessional and should not be said by a SC, cause that's just trying to decrease attendance at a DISC GOLF event. to try and get people to boycott something when you are suppose to be one of the ones as SC to help this sport grow, you are not doing your job. to tell the truth your own words on the other forum drove some players from the joliet event to ours.

bear may come across as harsh, but when folks from your area say the same things as what he reads i see his point.

wow bruce a coward wow how lame and childish

[Jon Brakel]

It is accepted PDGA practice that the TD with the existing sanctioning is asked if they will allow the other event to take place. It has happened to me several times as TD of the IOS that either Brett or the PDGA office has called me to ask me to allow another event within our zone of exculsion. Sometimes it has been the other TD himself to contact me.

In this case Joliet was first in with their SC approved date so it was up to the Joliet TD to allow the tournament sanctioning or not.

[tacimala]

I'm guessing a few emails or phone calls could have sorted this out better than attracting dumb from all angles.

[JaSoN G.]

I think the comment Brett said is fair.  In all actuality Dana did ask for sanctioning way before Grabm.  Their was a conflict of interest due to the proximity of the courses.  They made the right decision due to the fact that Rockford was doing an annual tournament and needed sanctiong for insurance reasons.  

Duain and Bear....I know you may be upset with me but I see no personal gain.  Brett had no gaurantee he would win, so how would that be for personal gain?  Both parties have crossed a line of insulting each club.  When people get pissed it is very easy to do so.

I was on the verge of going to joliet but couldn't commit to the 2 days.  I went up to Rockfor instead (glad I did got the win....  I actually liked the option.  I believe both tournamnets had a decent turn out, so now its just water under the bridge.

[CEValkyrie]

wow from one forum to the next. i can see both views here, since i was at the brunt of questions on the other forum. we still had about 62 players on saturday really the 2 tournys came out great. the big issues i thought were over untill i read this.

i think this all unfolded from Brett making the comment about letting dana ALLOW Rockford sanctioning(would have been better left unsaid). to most, that comment and others made were seen as a personal gain and playing favorites by Brett, by wanting more people at the event he was trying to cash out in.

SC is a tough job to coordinate events and make all happy. look on pdga sight at the 4 events ran in kentucky this past weekend, all about the same distance as joliet and rockford seems no problems there, they were all sanctioned by a SC.

The issue here is calling another club gay and say boycott them is very unprofessional and should not be said by a SC, cause that's just trying to decrease attendance at a DISC GOLF event. to try and get people to boycott something when you are suppose to be one of the ones as SC to help this sport grow, you are not doing your job. to tell the truth your own words on the other forum drove some players from the joliet event to ours.

bear may come across as harsh, but when folks from your area say the same things as what he reads i see his point.

wow bruce a coward wow how lame and childish

Duain,

Are you kidding me?

This comment started all of this.
"Just an FYI. I put the decision in Dana's hands to allow the doubles to be sanctioned or not. He ok'd the doubles so I approved it. If he said no I would not have approved the date. "

Rockford should be very appreciative that Dana approved the sanctioning of the event. That is why I posted. Like Jon said, this is a standard practice among the PDGA Office, State Coordinators, and TD's when it comes to scheduling. This isn't favoritism. This is about a priority system. It's too bad there were 130 golfers split between 2 events this weekend when there could have been 130 golfers at both each on separate weekends.

Personal gain. Are you serious? I wish I were 1 of 2 people playing for that $1300 added cash. Just not Al Hermosillo, Matt Coyne, or Rob Strasser. Unreal!

As for being unprofessional i'd agree. At this I am tired of Rockford. I thought things were over but I guess not.

[CEValkyrie]

I think the comment Brett said is fair.  In all actuality Discontinuum did ask for sanctioning way before Grabm.  Their was a conflict of interest due to the proximity of the courses.  They made the right decision due to the fact that Rockford was doing an annual tournament and needed sanctiong for insurance reasons.  

Jason & all.

I'm not sure where DISContinuum is involved with any of this. That is what really set me off. DIScontinuum has nothing to do with this period! Discontinuum has not had an event since 9-7. Discontinuum had nothing to do with Joliet this past weekend. I have no idea why Discontinuum keeps coming up.

[JaSoN G.]

My bad..... Changed it. 

[The Fiddler]

Brett and Scott I have thrown a few of your tournaments and have walked away at the end of the day happy thinking wow that was a great!  I appreciate everyone's effort be it the TD's or volunteers who help put these things together. I played Rockford because of the time of year I wish Joliet Championships were played in the late summer or something.  I am sure there is a reason and am not complaining. It just bums me out when I see all this complaining and name calling. We as Disc Golfers are a minority. Only the people who play get it. All my other friends tease me about "Throwing pie tins in the quad." Its always a cool feeling to see people come together for any type of disc golf event. If there is a beef about scheduling or what ever can't it be approached in a constructive manner so there isn't this fighting and division?  P.s. Calling someone a coward online is being a coward in my book. Signed Bald Brian Kidder #34997

[Tom McManus]

If you hadn't noticed the original post has been edited and the poster has identified himself. I know when I look at new messages the edited posts do not always show up as new.

[stpitner]

     My posting yesterday was not meant to start trouble but to avoid complications in the future.  I would never boycott your club.  Do not shoot the messenger or try to imply that anyone else is responsible for my words or actions.  I was just passing along information that I heard from other people that may be detrimental to both organizations.  The rumor of a boycott was enough to concern me.  Whatever is going on with people of more authority than myself needs to be addressed, that was my message.
 
     I have been involved with promoting the sport for a long time and my posting was meant to be informational.  I will apologize for be too direct or harsh to anyone in particular but that is how I get my point across.  People will not respond to those who come across being soft or indirect. I say what I mean and mean what I say.  I hide behind nothing.

     I would like for all organizations across the area to correspond and work together.  Jason hit the nail on the head.  There have been an honest mistake in scheduling.  I stated this in my original posting.  I stayed in constant communication with fellow TDs throughout the area during my tenure in the 1990's.  Things have changed and now have become competitive between clubs.  The competition should stay on the course.

     I have always had a good relationship with fellow golfers.  I don't want my posting to be a problem.  I should have kept some information which I passed on to myself.  I should not have assumed that any particular party or parties are responsible.  I will again apologize for that.  If Discontinuum Administration wishes me to never post again, I will honor that request.  Some acquired information is best kept to myself.

                                                                                      Barry Maxwell , GRABM member.

Barry - thanks for coming back to the thread and checking out the responses.  I'm not the admin, but I think it's safe to say that in no way should you feel like you can't come back to these boards and join the discussions and post.  I think it would be great to be able to work with the GRABM guys instead of having some sort of cold war between clubs.  A lot of things have been said (outside this thread especially) - lots has had some truth to it, and lots has had a lot of inaccuracies and misconceptions.

I'd love to hear from you more often - unfortunately until this year I don't remember hearing about the weekend before Halloween doubles at Rockford.  I've only been a TD for 3 years now, but I'd be happy to be in communication about schedules.  I'm sure others would be willing as well.  I think it would also be awesome to get a couple TD's together and a bunch of club members from BOTH clubs to put on some HUGE, fantastic events!  Let's give not only the people in Illinois but all of the surrounding states some excellent reasons to stop in Illinois and play some of our courses instead of driving right on by.

Scott

[Dan Michler]

If anybody thinks Brett's intentions as a State Coordinator or a TD are self serving and not in the best interest of Illinois disc golf, you could not possibly be more wrong about anything.  If you believe anything I have to say, believe that.

[CEValkyrie]

Brett and Scott I have thrown a few of your tournaments and have walked away at the end of the day happy thinking wow that was a great!  I appreciate everyone's effort be it the TD's or volunteers who help put these things together. I played Rockford because of the time of year I wish Joliet Championships were played in the late summer or something.  I am sure there is a reason and am not complaining. It just bums me out when I see all this complaining and name calling. We as Disc Golfers are a minority. Only the people who play get it. All my other friends tease me about "Throwing pie tins in the quad." Its always a cool feeling to see people come together for any type of disc golf event. If there is a beef about scheduling or what ever can't it be approached in a constructive manner so there isn't this fighting and division?  P.s. Calling someone a coward online is being a coward in my book. Signed Bald Brian Kidder #34997

Brian,
     
      I appreciate you playing and the kind words. We spend a lot of hours doing something we love and believe in. If I got paid for the amount of time I put into disc golf i'd be making a pretty good living. The year is winding down and I have a short fuse right now. A lot ot times you hear the negatives a lot more than the positives. It realy irks me when people do not have the facts or understand what they are talking aboutt especially when it comes to PDGA scheduling.

    I am glad you got out to play this weekend. Would you have played Joliet if the Rockford event was scheduled for this weekend?

Thanks!
Brett