Its about time! Congrats Andre Dawson.

[Mike Clark]

It took way too long but Andre Dawson finally made it to the MLB hall of Fame. One of my favorite Cubs ever.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100106&content_id=7882022&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

[Chainmeister]

It took way too long but Andre Dawson finally made it to the MLB hall of Fame. One of my favorite Cubs ever.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100106&content_id=7882022&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Congrats to the Hawk. A great guy and a great player.  Blyleven was snubbed again.  I think he should throw his curve ball to every voter who left him off the ballot  I think he would still fool them all.  Sadly, he seems to be going the way of Ron Santo.They both deserve election.  Blyleven was never the best pitcher in the game. He was merely one of the better ones for a very long time.  The voters dropped this Twinkie on the floor.

[pdga#7648]

about time. The Hawk was the best player the Expo's ever had!

[Dan Michler]

The Hawk!  I remember writing him a letter when I was 8.  Definitely my favorite player at the time.  49 HR back in 1987 was unreal, about like hitting 70 now.

Interesting that McGwire again only received 25% of the vote and now decides to admit steroid usage.  I think he's trying to work the forgiveness angle, A-Rod style.  Next year the Hall is really going to start having to deal with the steroid issue when Palmeiro, Juan Gonzalez, and Bagwell go on the ballot (don't tell me they weren't all using).  In 3 years we'll have Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Biggio, and Piazza.  All automatic 1st ballot Hall of Famers by the numbers.

I've got a feeling some guys who were merely suspected of steroid use will be denied the Hall solely because of the allegations, while other guys who are just as guilty will get in anyways.  Its BS.  There is no fair way to pick and choose, so in my opinion, everybody should be allowed in if their careers merit the honor.  McGwire should get in.  Palmeiro should get in.  Bonds/Clemens/Sosa, etc...  Put them in a wing of the Hall dedicated to the Steroid Era.  It is what it is.

[The Fiddler]

Pete Rose should be in there before all those doods.

[pdga#7648]

I've got a feeling some guys who were merely suspected of steroid use will be denied the Hall solely because of the allegations, while other guys who are just as guilty will get in anyways.  Its BS.  There is no fair way to pick and choose, so in my opinion, everybody should be allowed in if their careers merit the honor.  McGwire should get in.  Palmeiro should get in.  Bonds/Clemens/Sosa, etc...  Put them in a wing of the Hall dedicated to the Steroid Era.  It is what it is.

well put Dan!!

[Dan Michler]

Pete Rose should be in there before all those doods.

Completely unrelated issue.  But if you want to get upset at somebody about that, get upset at Pete Rose.  He is the one who signed an agreement, banning him from baseball for life.

[jasonc]

The Hawk!  I remember writing him a letter when I was 8.  Definitely my favorite player at the time.  49 HR back in 1987 was unreal, about like hitting 70 now.

Interesting that McGwire again only received 25% of the vote and now decides to admit steroid usage.  I think he's trying to work the forgiveness angle, A-Rod style.  Next year the Hall is really going to start having to deal with the steroid issue when Palmeiro, Juan Gonzalez, and Bagwell go on the ballot (don't tell me they weren't all using).  In 3 years we'll have Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Biggio, and Piazza.  All automatic 1st ballot Hall of Famers by the numbers.

I've got a feeling some guys who were merely suspected of steroid use will be denied the Hall solely because of the allegations, while other guys who are just as guilty will get in anyways.  Its BS.  There is no fair way to pick and choose, so in my opinion, everybody should be allowed in if their careers merit the honor.  McGwire should get in.  Palmeiro should get in.  Bonds/Clemens/Sosa, etc...  Put them in a wing of the Hall dedicated to the Steroid Era.  It is what it is.

In light of McGwire's apology statement yesterday, do you still think he should get in the Hall?  Not that it was much of a surprise to anyone...

I am conflicted on this issue, leaning towards the opinion that if it was proven a player took roids or other PED's, that player should not be eligible for the HOF.  They did not break any written rules because MLB did not test for PED's.  However, they certainly had an unfair advantage over the other players who stayed clean.  There is also a very good chance that a number of players took PEDs but managed to stay out of the Mitchell Report and other news headlines.  Fair, honest competition has always been a big reason for the continued success of the major pro sports.  It is now obvious that there was no fair competition during most of the 80's and 90's.  I should have spent more time watching Hulk Hogan and Andre the Giant!  

[Dan Michler]

Yes, I would still vote him in because his numbers warrant it.  The other option is to ban everybody who played in the "Steroid Era" before there was testing for PEDs.  But then, how do you define when this era began?  How do we know Reggie Jackson wasn't on steroids?  He was never even tested.  NFL players in the 70's were on steroids, so why couldn't baseball players have been on them as well.  I don't think Canseco invented the notion of steroids in baseball.  I think the only logical solution is to ignore the steroid issue when it comes to Hall of Fame voting, because there is simply no scientific way to know who did it and how much it helped them.  By the way, I love McGwire's statement that he is 100% convinced he would have hit every one of his 583 HRs had he never taken steroids.  Okay!  I'll take your word for it Mark!  The guys who used steroids and still get into the Hall of Fame are going to be paying a significant penalty with their mental and physical health down the line, so its not as if they are getting off scot-free.

If we use your method Jason, and deny anybody who has been proven to have taken steroids, then Sammy Sosa is getting in and Alex Rodriguez isn't.  I'm not sure how that makes any sense.  There has only been a handful of Hall-of-Fame caliber players who have actually been proven guilty of taking some sort of PED.  I guess thats just bad luck for those few guys while dozens of others get away with it?  What if a guy tests positive for a PED when he's in the minor leagues, and years later goes on to become a Hall of Fame major leaguer that is regarded as a 100% 'clean' player?  Is he denied the HOF?  Its too complicated and too messy.  Its certainly tainted baseball for a lot of fans and there is no reasonable way that the MLB can undo the damage.  Its not going to be fair that steroid users are going to be in the HOF (and perhaps already are) while some clean borderline HOF players will be denied access.  But there is simply no way to make that right.

Bonds and Sosa are the last 2 major targets left who are heavily suspected, but haven't come clean and asked for forgiveness.  I'm betting neither of them will admit to anything anytime soon though.  They both have testified under oath that they never took steroids which opens them up to prison time if they decide to come clean.  I guess we'll just have to wait for the rest of the names on that Mitchell Report to be released before we get our next tearful apology filled with excuses and arguments why steroids didn't actually help them on the field.  Can't wait!

[jasonc]

That's not my method, just tossing around some ideas in light of McGwire's coming out of the steroid closet party.  Here's another one...
Instead of banning everyone, bring back the asterisk for all stats produced during the steroid era, with the * on all of the player's HOF plaques, if they earn enough votes.  However, this would certainly upset the likes of Frank Thomas, Greg Maddux and others who have never been connected to any type of steroid/PED investigation or Mitchell Report.  After the strike back in '94 or '95, baseball was dying a slow death until PED versions of Sosa and McGwire brought national attention back to the game.  Would we even be discussing baseball today if they continued on that downward trend?  I believe that at least 4 or 5 teams would have folded by now without steroids.  Maybe this was all part of Bud's master plan???  I'm looking forward to his next move!

Maybe disc golf could use a good scandal like this to get some air time on ESPN.  (to avoid any confusion, this IS 100% sarcasm)

[Chainmeister]

I tend to agree that they should all go in but their plaques should let us know what they did. However, its easier with guys like Bonds, Clemmons, A Rod etc. They would certainly have HOF numbers without any juice. They were great players who for whatever pathetic reasons felt they needed to be better or play longer.  McGuire?  Frankly, I think he would have been Dave Kingman if he didn't take the stuff. Sosa?  He was a skinny kid who when he was with the White Sox I called Mr. Metal Mistake.  He was a talented doofus.  Then one day he showed up at Spring Training looking like he fell off the pages of a Marvel Comics book.  We don't know anything yet. However, I suspect that he, too, would have had very pedestrian numbers absent the stuff.  As time goes on it becomes more and more clear how great guys like (getting back to the thread here...}Dawson, Frank Thomas, Maddux, Randy Johnson, Schilling etc are.  Never implicated. Always great.  They played in the so-called steroid era when plenty of opposing players who had an unfair advantage and they did great things.

[pdga#7648]

here is my input.
Greg Maddux was a great pitcher, never linked to PED's in any way. Look at how many more wins he would have gotten, had there been no steroids. He faced who knows how many dirty players.
While all the greats from way back when... Dimaggio, Mantle, Ruth, Aaron, William, Mays, etc., etc. ,etc, are being passed in the record books, by the help of the PED's. If McGwire was HONEST this time, and actually took nothing before 1993, that means he played 6 seasons clean. He hit 215 HR's, and averaged almost 100 rbis in those 6 years. Enough to get into the HOF. Just say he only played 6 years, then a disease struck him. Which is true.

If Baseball wanted to make things right?  They should start in 1990-2009(AROD came clean last year), and all those on the Mitchell report, all 103 or whatever it is... all numbers be erased from the recoed books. If their numbers still merit them into the HOF, then they get in. As Dan said, way too many that are not on the Mitchell report that used will get into the hall, so in fairness, even those that used should get in.

But, to me, Hank Aaron is still the HR Champion. Until Pujols passes him!! If Pujols is ever linked, I will be done with baseball. At least let it be true that what we see from him, is a natural talent.


And like McGwire.... we all know Sosa and Bonds are guilty. But again, Dan hit it on the head. A prison sentence isn't worth the honesty to them.

[Mike Clark]

The main thing the PED era has done for me is prove that Baseball stats are skewed and mean nothing any more. In most sports that would mean nothing to me. But to me stats is almost everything in baseball. Prior to this time period you could count on quality players to put up consistent numbers. I am 40yo and I grew up in the era where size meant nothing in baseball. Power hitters were something special. Now power hitters are a dime a dozen and they hit .300+. It has turned into professional slow pitch softball. Expansion its part problem as well. Quality Pitching is horribly diluted in MLB. I grew up with the blazing fast teams of the 70's-80's. PEDs completely changed the game to the point where it went from the sport that I idolized as a kid and pretty much dedicated my entire childhood to. Now to me it is a big joke and all I care about is the Cubs winning a World Series not matter what.

Stats in MLB mean nothing anymore. At least to me. They used to mean almost everything.

I feel really bad for guys like Greg Maddux and Frank Thomas and all the guys who were supposedly clean. I say that cause no matter what I want to believe it is hard to trust anyone from that so called era in baseball. But if they were clean their careers were that much more impressive.

The Mitchell report should have been made public after ARod was called out. The so called anonymous test was never anonymous and after the first time a name was leaked the whole list should have been made public out of fairness to those who were tested. Both clean and dirty. The players that did not test positive deserve to have their names cleared. The information that is public is how many were tested and how many failed the test.

Nothing McGwire says has any merit of truth. You do not lie twice under oath and then ask people to believe anything you ever say ever again. Just shut up and go home. This is his pathetic attempt to get into the HoF. If he does get in and is not in the cheaters wing the HoF will lose all meaning for me as well. Yes they should build a cheaters wing. Call it what ever PC thing you want but they need to be called out an separated from the rest. Maybe that era just gets called out for what it was and people make there own decisions from reputation and stats.

[Dan Michler]

I think this is an interesting debate.  Seems like two pretty drastically different viewpoints that people have.

This article on ESPN shows the viewpoints of each ESPN writer who has a HOF vote.  They make a lot of the same arguments that we have made on this forum.  My personal opinion is that Tim Kurkjian and Buster Olney's arguments are the most logical.  Either you can vote for nobody who played in the steroid era or you can simply vote based on their careers.  The HOF plaque will note what they did.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4819153