$11 B-tier

[Jon Brakel]

I split off this topic from the $5 late fee thread based on this post by Dan...

Clearly some players just aren't going to pre-reg for a variety of reasons.  If your tournament isn't going to fill, then you have to weigh the benefit of your late fee against the cost of losing players who don't want to pay it.

I'm still of the opinion that the cost of playing amateur disc golf tournaments is too high.  In my perfect world, the cost of prizes would be taken out of the entry fee equation.  If somebody wants to donate prizes to sponsor the tournament, great, otherwise there doesn't need to be any prizes.

I am still on board with TD's making money to run amateur events.  I'd just rather they determine the amount of profit that makes running the event worth their while into the entry fee.  Just to throw out some example numbers.... if we have $2 PDGA fee, $2 course use fee, $1 to cover PDGA sanctioning fee, $1 misc.expenses, $4 TD fee...that would be a $10 entry to play a tournament.  If there are 150 players on the weekend the TD can leave with $600 for his efforts.

I'd be fine with going back to buying discs at the store on an as-needed basis instead of having discs thrown at me constantly just because I love the competitive environment of a disc golf tournament.  I don't think I'm the only amateur who would be happier with this scenario that the current status quo.  I've passed on more than 1 disc golf tournament this year because of the entry fee and I'm not exactly in any sort of financial crisis.  I think most other amateur disc golfers are going through the same decision process on a weekly basis, especially since the region has become saturated with disc golf tournaments throughout the spring/summer/fall over the past few years.

For those of you wondering what thread drift is..........

Dan,

I think I could run a non Merchastravaganza^TM tournament as an Am B tier within the current PDGA rules. Perhaps next year we could work in a format like this for Bevier. The player pack might have to be merch. We could do a coupon for lunch but it would be difficult to justify a $10 lunch.

Maybe you were thinking C-tier though since you said $2 PDGA fee. $2 per player is for C tier, $3 per player for B tier.

For a one day C tier at Bevier I could run something like this:

$2 PDGA per player fee
$1 per player to cover PDGA sanctioning and insurance
$2 trophies and misc expenses
$0 course use fee if it is run as a Discontinuum event

$5 amateur tournament!

For a one or two day B tier at Bevier I could run something like this:

$5 to cover player pack
$3 PDGA per player fee
$1 per player to cover PDGA sanctioning and insurance
$2 trophies and misc expenses
$0 course use fee if it is run as a Discontinuum event

$11 amateur B tier tournament!

The C-tier would require a waiver from the PDGA for payout percentage requirements. The C tier would have a PDGA payout percentage of about 33 and a third and the C tier requirement is 75% payout.

The B-tier would have a payout percent of 137.5% and the PDGA requirement is 100%. So, no problem there. You are forced to have $10 worth of merch thrown at you but for the $11 entry fee it's not bad.

To figure payout percentage take the entry fee and subtract the per player PDGA fee and course use fee. This is your adjusted entry fee. Add up player pack value, CTPs (flight life etc), payouts and trophies and this is your total payout. Divide the total payout by the entry fee to get your payout percentage.

So for the B-tier example the entry fee is $11 minus $3 pdga per player fee for an adjusted entry fee of $8. The payout is $10 player pack plus $1 for trophies which equals $11. 11/8 = 1.375 or 137.5%.

This is how you arrive at a per player "budget" for a tournament. The actual payout percentage can change based on attendance. Usually your trophy cost is fixed going into the weekend but your attendance might change. A higher turn out would result in a slightly less payout assuming that the trophies are a fixed cost and not something that you can change on the fly.

[pickax]

Jon you'd probably lose money on a $5 C-tier. Unless you think you're going to get 100 players, you'd be short on PDGA sanctioning and Ins.

You can run a C-tier trophy only without a waiver. Simply make the full fee price something obscene like $500 and trophy only for $5. I'm pretty sure everyone will want to play trophy only. 

[Jon Brakel]

Jon you'd probably lose money on a $5 C-tier. Unless you think you're going to get 100 players, you'd be short on PDGA sanctioning and Ins.

You can run a C-tier trophy only without a waiver. Simply make the full fee price something obscene like $500 and trophy only for $5. I'm pretty sure everyone will want to play trophy only. 

Does the trophy-only side not count when doing a payout percentage? If that's the case then I'd advertise the tournament as trophy-only and forget payout percentages.

I think the misc. expense side would pick-up the short fall in sanctioning and insurance. As an experiment I'd be willing to risk not making back the sanctioning and insurance money.

[pickax]

I consulted the TD report, and it does not compute tournament value correctly as it does not deduct event sanctioning fees (it does deduct per/player fees), but it does include trophy only entry fees in the denominator. So I can't really tell from there. I'll have to do a bit more research.

[Jon Brakel]

I consulted the TD report, and it does not compute tournament value correctly as it does not deduct event sanctioning fees (it does deduct per/player fees), but it does include trophy only entry fees in the denominator. So I can't really tell from there. I'll have to do a bit more research.

I didn't think it was supposed to deduct sanctioning fees, only per player fees.

[Chainmeister]

I liked Dan's original post and think this would be a very popular idea.  In essence, its like the club tournament with the players paying their own  fees rather than the club picking them up.  The club tournament is very popular and would be even better attended if it was not a weekday event.  It would be interesting if lunch could be run as the player pack.  Even though the players are really buying it they think they are getting something that we have all been taught never exists...a free lunch!

I see no reason why the club challenge could not be run this way. It could remain a free event.  Or, it could be a nominal fee event like we are disucssing here. The clubs could donate some money to pay some actual prizes to some of the winning players on a side bet. Then we would have a low fee tournament with a handful of prizes.

[Jon Brakel]

It would be interesting if lunch could be run as the player pack.  Even though the players are really buying it they think they are getting something that we have all been taught never exists...a free lunch!

The problem with lunch being the player pack is if I am paying someone $5 per lunch it is tough to justify that it is a $10 player pack.

[Dan Michler]

Thats a cool idea Jon.  The effort of bringing in huge amounts of merch for the event would be eliminated.  As a player I'm having the exact same competitive experience that I have at a $50 B-tier, which is the only reason I'm there in the first place.

[Jon Brakel]

What would you want to see for a $10 player pack?

[Bruce Brakel]

We actually did something like this for the Bevier Blast a few years ago.  I've run $5 C-tiers in Michigan and have lost my shirt, but it was a shirt I did not care so much about.  If you're losing $2 per player and you only have 35 players, it's not like you're going to need a federal bailout to cover the hit. 

You can make the money add up for the PDGA by tossing in a club fee.  Whatever the sanctioning and insurance adds up to divided by the number of players is the club fee and then you have a net entry fee of zero and player value of zero.  The club fee is not something extra the players pay; it is just a number on the TD report.  This is how I balanced the TD report for the Tag Finals so many years ago.  If you use homemade trophies that gives you some wiggle room on the TD report also. 

You do not need any special permission to run the amateurs as trophy-only but arguably you need special permission to run the pros as trophy-only.  This is my opinion based on the competition manual section 2.1(D) and (E). 

[Jon Brakel]

I think with this kind of format I'd run the pros for $10 entry fee C-tier. Entry fee back minus pdga player fee for payout.