Playing Open

[Dan Michler]

Super bored at work today.  Did a quick analysis of the number of players, average golf to cash, and cash for 1st place at all Illinois and Wisconsin events completed in 2010.

Illinois had 21 Open events and Wisco has had 23 Open events.

The average Illinois field consists of 19 pros compared to 24 pros in Wisconsin (this difference is largely due to Standing Rocks which had 65 pros, much more than any other event in either state).

The average cash for 1st place in Illinois is $349 compared to $358 in Wisconsin.  Both had 1 A-tier, so these numbers compare pretty well.

In Illinois it takes 972 golf on average to make the cash, where in Wisconsin it takes 964 golf.  In Wisconsin, amateurs seem to turn pro slightly earlier than in Illinois, which probably accounts for this difference.

So, if you are 950 rated or less, just know that you need to shoot 2 or more strokes better per round than your average golf if you are going to get your money back, which will eventually lead to:

A) your skill keeps improving and you end up being a player who consistently cashes...or
you burn a hole in your wallet at 50 bucks per tournament, only cashing in 1 out of every 4 and eventually quit playing tournaments.

The safer play here is to stay in Advanced until your rating is about 960-970.  Then it should be safe to play Open and probably not lose much more money than you were losing playing Advanced.

[CEValkyrie]

I didn't have much time last week to add to this.

The biggest difference from Pro to Amateur is the entry fee. As a pro the lowest entry fee is usually $50. In Illinois you can usually play 5 am events at $30 compared to 3 pro events at $50. Pros usually don't get a player pack. Worlds cost $230. If you are going to play pro you better budget your money wisely. A-Tiers are usually around $100. I just did some quick math. Under the 10 events that are listed on my pdga profield i've spent around $800 in entry fees.

When you turn pro you lose many of your travel partners. If you go to Worlds you need a separate vehicle and don't play many of the courses. At A-Tiers the Pros are separated from the amateurs.

[pdga#7648]

When you turn pro you lose many of your travel partners.

travel partners??? haven't had any since the Martin Bothers retired or moved to Michigan. I've traveled alone the last 3 years, so wont be new in 2012.      yep, that's when I will be 40. Hopefully the top open players now wont go to the Masters division.   fingers crossed

[OvEr HaNd AsSaSiN]

Stay AM for life. You dont have to practice as much, its Cheaper, and more fun. 

[pdga#7648]

you wont think that when you are 38 and have a tough time competing with the mid 20's players, or even younger. Maybe 1 Worlds as a Advanced Masters, but then the jump will happen. May even play Open next year, just to get the practice of playing with way better players.

[Brad]

I love the open div.  If you play good you can win money and play with the big dogs.  If you play bad you still get to play with good people.  Not so true in other div.  As for the money.  When you play good in am, you get plastic.  You don't get your money back.  How do you pay for gas or the next tourney with plastic.  You have to go through the hassle of selling it.  If you can place in the top 3 or 5 in advanced I say give open a try.  I know your game will improve and you get cash.

                                                                              Brad Seegert

[Dwiggy444]

I've been thinking about "turning Pro" a lot in the last few months, for one main reason:

I've got plenty of plastic.  I've got multiple dups of every mold I throw and although it's fun to try new molds every once in a while, I don't NEED to get several new discs every time I play in a tournament. So if I play well in a tournament, I'd rather just take cash to recup some of my costs for entering.

I'm in a slightly better position to turn Pro because I am over 40 and eligible to play in the Masters division.  Although there are still plenty of people who regularly play Masters that can CRUSH me (our local Pro, Rob Strasser, is an excellent example), the last cash spot in most tournaments in well within my reach...as long as I don't play like a newb.  Which I often do.  But I digress...

I wonder if there are other people out there who are NOT top tier Advanced players (and are probably several years away from getting to that level) who would rather play for cash.  Maybe we can start our own "Entry Level Pro" division?  Or are we forever doomed to be stuck in the middle, winning plastic that we're just going to sell and/or donating to the Pros whenever we play?

[Dan Michler]

They had a Pro2 division a few years ago.  As I recall, you could play Pro 2 but still retain your amateur status.  I don't remember all the specifics, but it didn't draw many players.  I think it came about because at that time you were not allowed to play in Advanced if your rating was over 960.

[Jon Brakel]

They had a Pro2 division a few years ago.  As I recall, you could play Pro 2 but still retain your amateur status.  I don't remember all the specifics, but it didn't draw many players.  I think it came about because at that time you were not allowed to play in Advanced if your rating was over 960.

Pro 2 was a choice for lower rated pros. It was targeted for the lower rated pro who wasn't old enough to play masters. It had a rating cap but I don't remember what it was. Pro 2 was another division that was born from the IOS and adopted by the PDGA but it never caught on. Pro half-in, pro amnesty and pros playing in am divisions were the replacement ideas for Pro 2. Pro half-in was also an idea that was developed by the IOS and adopted by the PDGA.

As far as I know there was never a ratings cap on Advanced but I think Pro 2 was the first pro division that the PDGA allowed amateurs to play in and accept prizes instead of cash.

[Dan Michler]

I agree there was no PDGA upper ratings limit on Advanced.  However, I remember this exact situation at the 2004 IOS at Crystal Lake.

Sean Butler's rating bumped over 960 days before the event.  He was not allowed to play advanced as a result.  He did not want to take cash as he was going to Am Nats that fall.  He was allowed to play Pro 2 and take prizes instead.

Download the 2004 IOS flyer from Jon's post here:
http://discontinuum.org/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=944.20

It lists Advanced <960 and Pro 2<960.  But then describes Pro 2 as 'primarily' for players under 960.  Pros got pro points and Ams got am points.  I think the rule may have been, players who have taken cash (pros), can only play Pro 2 if they are <960 and are allowed to take cash in Pro2.  Ams could play Pro2 at any rating and take prizes in lieu of cash.

[Jon Brakel]

I agree there was no PDGA upper ratings limit on Advanced.  However, I remember this exact situation at the 2004 IOS at Crystal Lake.

Sean Butler's rating bumped over 960 days before the event.  He was not allowed to play advanced as a result.  He did not want to take cash as he was going to Am Nats that fall.  He was allowed to play Pro 2 and take prizes instead.

Download the 2004 IOS flyer from Jon's post here:
http://discontinuum.org/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=944.20

It lists Advanced <960 and Pro 2<960.  But then describes Pro 2 as 'primarily' for players under 960.  Pros got pro points and Ams got am points.  I think the rule may have been, players who have taken cash (pros), can only play Pro 2 if they are <960 and are allowed to take cash in Pro2.  Ams could play Pro2 at any rating and take prizes in lieu of cash.

Dan, thanks for the link to the flyer. That jogged my memory a bit by seeing the flyer. I think this was the situation: There was no ratings cap on Advanced unless you offered Pro 2. In the proposal that we made to the PDGA for Pro 2, we just wanted a division for lower rated pros to play in and thought that for most Pro Masters it would give them an opportunity to play both days. However, the PDGA took it and used Pro 2 also as a cap for Advanced to protect the Advanced division from Super Advanced players who were waiting for after Worlds to turn pro. Funny the things you forget after 6 years. We were also charging a graduated scale of entry fees back then, although with only two adult amateur price points seperated by $10 we were on our way to single tiered pricing that we have today. Also interesting that Advanced divisions are less expensive at IOS events today than they were 6 years ago.

[Tom McManus]

Advanced Master more than Pro Master? WTH.

[Dan Michler]

I think the IOS started out by going mostly with the PDGA suggested entry fees, which were way high and probably damaged the attendance.  Strange to think that was 6 years ago.

[Jon Brakel]

I think the IOS started out by going mostly with the PDGA suggested entry fees, which were way high and probably damaged the attendance.  Strange to think that was 6 years ago.

I remember that for the ams we went with PDGA suggested entry fees. For the pros, Brett had the idea of doing a pretty inexpensive entry fee. Pro entry fees in the area had gotten to be about $75 on the average in the area and he thought that lowering the pro entry fee would bring more pros out that didn't normally play a lot of events because of the cost. I don't think our am entry fees were out of line for the area at the time. I think Gary and Brian were charging $40-45 for advanced divisions and other fairly close tournaments were charging $50 or more for advanced. It did help our attendance when we brought the price for all ams down to the $30 range and upped the pros to $50. Pros seemed to like the reasonable entry fee but wanted just a little more so that the payout would be slightly better. I think it just made the math easier to figure out with $50 per pro! 

When we changed advanced to $30 people thought it was a ridiculously low entry fee for advanced. Doing a random check of disc golf tournaments this weekend in the country shows that $30 for ams is still a low entry fee as well as $50 for pros. For C and B tiers it seems that $60 is more an average for pro entry fees and $45 for ams. Graduated entry fees for ams is still the norm.

There's a guy who used to play IOS events until he moved to the east coast a couple of years ago. He's running a tournament this week (hurricane permitting, I suppose). He's running it as a pro C, am B tier, pros $50, all ams $30, all jrs $20 with lots of free CTPs for the ams. I was flattered!