Quote from: SIUFrolf on July 19, 2009, 10:12:44 PM
that just seems crazy to me. So theoretically someone could be 1000 rated, but never took cash, so they can still play in the ADV division? What's the point of ratings breaks among divisons?
That rating system is the WORST thing the PDGA has done in years.
Look at the IOS#3 last weekend. That Kris that won in Advanced was a 921 rating. Look at all the 960's, 950's, and 940's he beat. Is his 921 better than 966?? NO, but he shot better. Ratings shouldn't mean ANYTHING to the AM players. Anyone can shoot bad and keep their rating low, to always assure themselves of picking up plastic for winning tournaments in lower divisions.
Like the rules stated back in the 90's. ONCE a player takes CASH in a PDGA event, they SHOULD NOT EVER be able to go back and play as an Am. Can TIGER Woods go play a Amateur tournament? No he can't. We all would love this sport to grow to 1 day be like the PGA, but where is the incentive to move up to PRO when you can keep shooting high scores to keep your rating low, while always taking home a pile of discs. You can sell those discs and make money off of them. If those players that KNOW they cant compete with the TOP PROS, have every right to play ANY DIVISION they want, wouldn't you play the division you know you will cash in??
Whoa, Buddy.
All this means is that Kris whoever he is had a great day. His rating will rise. Ascendentt and descendent players make the ratings a little screwy. Playerrs who play very consistently, keep the ratings more simple. Sometimes, a young gun has a low rating for now. We all know he or she will be much higher rated next year. Less often, a plyer coming off of a long layoff or injury has a higher rating than their current rating suggests. This is one of the reasons why I really have no problem with the amnesty. If somebody was a pro back in the 90's and had kids and didn't play for 10 years and is now coming back, he or she may want to play AM for a while until they get their game back. Do we ever see veteran baseball players get sent back to Triple A? Of course we do. That is pro ball but the analogy still works.
Theoretically, somebody can shoot lousy rounds to intentially lower their rating so they can play either AM or if they are an AM play down and beat up on poorer players. If that is what they really want to do, so be it. This is not an epidemic. Are there mentally untable players? Sure. However, there not not too many players who are mentally unstable in that way.
Ratings still have meaning for AM players. I am rated 827. If that Kris and I are playing I have a pretty good idea that he will beat me. In fact, I have a pretty good idea that he will be about 10 strokes better than me. I may have a good day and may only lose by 5. He may have a good day and I may lose by 15. In any case, the ratings will give us both a pretty good guesstimate as to how things will turn out. Also, the divisions work reasonably well too. I will be playing in a ghetto with players of a similar skill set. The only time it will not work is when a new, unrated, player decides to play in my division but he is really as good as that Kris or even better. From what I saw, that occured in Sterling. Non members often come out at the top of Novice.
.
Quote from: pdga#7648 on July 20, 2009, 10:07:37 AM
Quote from: SIUFrolf on July 19, 2009, 10:12:44 PM
that just seems crazy to me. So theoretically someone could be 1000 rated, but never took cash, so they can still play in the ADV division? What's the point of ratings breaks among divisons?
That rating system is the WORST thing the PDGA has done in years.
Look at the IOS#3 last weekend. That Kris that won in Advanced was a 921 rating. Look at all the 960's, 950's, and 940's he beat. Is his 921 better than 966?? NO, but he shot better. Ratings shouldn't mean ANYTHING to the AM players. Anyone can shoot bad and keep their rating low, to always assure themselves of picking up plastic for winning tournaments in lower divisions.
Like the rules stated back in the 90's. ONCE a player takes CASH in a PDGA event, they SHOULD NOT EVER be able to go back and play as an Am. Can TIGER Woods go play a Amateur tournament? No he can't. We all would love this sport to grow to 1 day be like the PGA, but where is the incentive to move up to PRO when you can keep shooting high scores to keep your rating low, while always taking home a pile of discs. You can sell those discs and make money off of them. If those players that KNOW they cant compete with the TOP PROS, have every right to play ANY DIVISION they want, wouldn't you play the division you know you will cash in??
Quote from: pdga#7648 on July 20, 2009, 10:07:37 AM
Quote from: SIUFrolf on July 19, 2009, 10:12:44 PM
that just seems crazy to me. So theoretically someone could be 1000 rated, but never took cash, so they can still play in the ADV division? What's the point of ratings breaks among divisons?
That rating system is the WORST thing the PDGA has done in years.
Look at the IOS#3 last weekend. That Kris that won in Advanced was a 921 rating. Look at all the 960's, 950's, and 940's he beat. Is his 921 better than 966?? NO, but he shot better. Ratings shouldn't mean ANYTHING to the AM players. Anyone can shoot bad and keep their rating low, to always assure themselves of picking up plastic for winning tournaments in lower divisions.
Like the rules stated back in the 90's. ONCE a player takes CASH in a PDGA event, they SHOULD NOT EVER be able to go back and play as an Am. Can TIGER Woods go play a Amateur tournament? No he can't. We all would love this sport to grow to 1 day be like the PGA, but where is the incentive to move up to PRO when you can keep shooting high scores to keep your rating low, while always taking home a pile of discs. You can sell those discs and make money off of them. If those players that KNOW they cant compete with the TOP PROS, have every right to play ANY DIVISION they want, wouldn't you play the division you know you will cash in??
If there's no incentive to go pro then why would anyone go pro? Pros playing am has nothing to do with the rating system (other than to qualify). Pros playing am came along many years after ratings. Allowing low rated pros to play am is a way to get pros that should not have gone pro to return to competitive play and to give the border amateur who is not concerned with playing worlds and majors to give the pro ranks a shot without having to completely commit.
Once a player is in a position where there is an incentive for him/her to play pro, then he/she will make that decision naturally.
Kris played five tournaments in Intermediate this year, won 2, finished in the prizes at all five, and will not be allowed to play Intermediate for a few months now. If his game continues to improve, those will be the only five tournaments he plays in Intermediate for the next 30 years.
I see nothing wrong with that. He had an Intermediate rating at IOS 3 and prior tournaments. He played well. Now he doesn't have an intermediate rating. Now he has to move up. It is a very effective system for sorting out the amateurs and encouraging them to compete against similarly skilled opponents.
What does any of this have to do with 2009 Worlds? Is he playing Intermediate at Worlds? ;D
Quote from: Chainmeister on July 20, 2009, 10:31:09 AM
Whoa, Buddy.
All this means is that Kris whoever he is had a great day. His rating will rise. Ascendentt and descendent players make the ratings a little screwy. Playerrs who play very consistently, keep the ratings more simple. Sometimes, a young gun has a low rating for now. We all know he or she will be much higher rated next year. Less often, a plyer coming off of a long layoff or injury has a higher rating than their current rating suggests. This is one of the reasons why I really have no problem with the amnesty. If somebody was a pro back in the 90's and had kids and didn't play for 10 years and is now coming back, he or she may want to play AM for a while until they get their game back. Do we ever see veteran baseball players get sent back to Triple A? Of course we do. That is pro ball but the analogy still works.
Theoretically, somebody can shoot lousy rounds to intentially lower their rating so they can play either AM or if they are an AM play down and beat up on poorer players. If that is what they really want to do, so be it. This is not an epidemic. Are there mentally untable players? Sure. However, there not not too many players who are mentally unstable in that way.
Ratings still have meaning for AM players. I am rated 827. If that Kris and I are playing I have a pretty good idea that he will beat me. In fact, I have a pretty good idea that he will be about 10 strokes better than me. I may have a good day and may only lose by 5. He may have a good day and I may lose by 15. In any case, the ratings will give us both a pretty good guesstimate as to how things will turn out. Also, the divisions work reasonably well too. I will be playing in a ghetto with players of a similar skill set. The only time it will not work is when a new, unrated, player decides to play in my division but he is really as good as that Kris or even better. From what I saw, that occured in Sterling. Non members often come out at the top of Novice.
.
Quote from: pdga#7648 on July 20, 2009, 10:07:37 AM
Quote from: SIUFrolf on July 19, 2009, 10:12:44 PM
that just seems crazy to me. So theoretically someone could be 1000 rated, but never took cash, so they can still play in the ADV division? What's the point of ratings breaks among divisons?
That rating system is the WORST thing the PDGA has done in years.
Look at the IOS#3 last weekend. That Kris that won in Advanced was a 921 rating. Look at all the 960's, 950's, and 940's he beat. Is his 921 better than 966?? NO, but he shot better. Ratings shouldn't mean ANYTHING to the AM players. Anyone can shoot bad and keep their rating low, to always assure themselves of picking up plastic for winning tournaments in lower divisions.
Like the rules stated back in the 90's. ONCE a player takes CASH in a PDGA event, they SHOULD NOT EVER be able to go back and play as an Am. Can TIGER Woods go play a Amateur tournament? No he can't. We all would love this sport to grow to 1 day be like the PGA, but where is the incentive to move up to PRO when you can keep shooting high scores to keep your rating low, while always taking home a pile of discs. You can sell those discs and make money off of them. If those players that KNOW they cant compete with the TOP PROS, have every right to play ANY DIVISION they want, wouldn't you play the division you know you will cash in??
Than I guess it is what each player beleives in.
I toured back in the 90's left this game in 1999 as a Advanced. Didn't play again( kids, work, wife, etc.) until last year. Rating was like 929, way under the cutoff for Advanced. I didn't come back and play a lesser division, I came right back into MY right division. I could have played Intermediate and dominated that division, but WHY???? I knew I was better than what my rating showed at that time.
And I understand your point, 10 years off was alot of time. But my point is this. Last year at The Rockford A TIER. The Advanced winner had won 10 PRO tournaments, and made over $9,000 in the last 3 years, but he was able to play Advanced because his rating was under 970???? Does that seem fair??? I know the rule says whatever, but seriously, do you think he was in correct division???? NOWAY!!!!! But he had an arm full of discs when he left, now back to playing PRO this year. He shot bad rounds to get his rating under 970, then BAGGED his way to the win. If you all agree this was fair, I must be in the wrong sport.? If it makes a PRO feel good to come down and beat a bunch of AMs, and do it legally, again where is the incentive to move up to Pro and stay there??
Quote from: Bruce Brakel on July 20, 2009, 10:51:13 AM
What does any of this have to do with 2009 Worlds? Is he playing Intermediate at Worlds? ;D
sorry Bruce, we did kind of get of the subject there.
Quote from: pdga#7648 on July 20, 2009, 10:59:07 AM
Quote from: Bruce Brakel on July 20, 2009, 10:51:13 AM
What does any of this have to do with 2009 Worlds? Is he playing Intermediate at Worlds? ;D
sorry Bruce, we did kind of get of the subject there.
It is FUN to debate it though! Start a new thread in the PDGA area and I'll see you there! ;D
Seems fair to me. We don't have really have amateur and pro divisions. Amateurs don't play for compensation in most other competitive sports. What we have is much more analogous to Major Leagues, triple A, double A, etc.
Quote from: pdga#7648 on July 20, 2009, 10:55:37 AM
And I understand your point, 10 years off was alot of time. But my point is this. Last year at The Rockford A TIER. The Advanced winner had won 10 PRO tournaments, and made over $9,000 in the last 3 years, but he was able to play Advanced because his rating was under 970???? Does that seem fair??? I know the rule says whatever, but seriously, do you think he was in correct division???? NOWAY!!!!! But he had an arm full of discs when he left, now back to playing PRO this year. He shot bad rounds to get his rating under 970, then BAGGED his way to the win. If you all agree this was fair, I must be in the wrong sport.? If it makes a PRO feel good to come down and beat a bunch of AMs, and do it legally, again where is the incentive to move up to Pro and stay there??
I'd like to debate a few of pdga#7648's points, as I think he's not the only one with these views.
#1 Anybody can shoot high scores to keep their rating low and rake in piles of discs in lower divisions.
Seriously? Do you have an example of somebody currently practicing this? Let me get it straight. I shoot 950 golf at an intermediate tournament that I pay 30 bucks to play so that I can take home maybe 75-100 bucks in discs. Then I pay another 30 bucks at the next tourney and intentionally spend my day sucking terribly so that my rating will stay low. Then at the next tourney, the precious discs are all mine again! >:D You have to admit this is a pretty lame argument against the ratings system. I'm pretty sure when you see people shooting good one time, then bad the next, that wasn't by design.
#2 It was unfair for Mike Robinson to participate in the Advanced division at the Rockford A-tier in 2008.
Through 2008, Mike Robinson has won $5057 total as a PDGA Professional in 109 PDGA events. Lets make a very conservative estimate and say his average Pro entry in those 109 events was $60. That means he's paid $6540 in entry fees and taken home $5057 in prize money (he cashed 43% of the time). So, you're saying he intentionally threw bad rounds to make sure his rating would be under 970 and he could take home 1st place at the Rockford A tier by 1 stroke. I'd say he proved with the $1500+ in donated entry fees over a 3 year period that he was a borderline Open/Advanced player. He should play whatever division gives him the most enjoyment and I'd assume he probably had a good time at that event.
So, what is the motivation to turn Pro? Unless you are one of the top 20 players in the world who are actually making a little bit of money (stress the word 'little'), the motivation is to compete at the highest level. If you don't have that desire, then there isn't going to be any motivation until there is enough sponsorship money involved that players aren't primarily competing for each other's entry fees.
I think most players primary reason for playing tournaments is to
compete. For me personally, I'm a 921 rated player and when I play Intermediate or Advanced, I feel a sense of competition (i.e. when I shoot well I finish higher and when I shoot poorly I finish at the bottom). If I play Open, I'm just
playing, not competing (if I shoot well I'm at the bottom, if I shoot bad I'm at the bottom). Same if I play Novice (probably would finish near the top regardless of how I play). So I think there is your motivation to play Open, and I think its shared by a vast majority of the PDGA membership.
wow, how did I know it would be you I would debate with??
Ok, by the PDGA RULES, he was able to play, so no it was NOT UNFAIR!!! Just wrong on his part(IN MY EYES, AND PLENTY OF OTHERS) You broke it down CLEARLY, he has CASHED in 43% of his tournys!!!! ALMOST HALF!! Do you cash in half of your ADVANCED tournaments??? I would say NO!, So your motivation to move up, will never come about, we know this. But for those that do compete in our CORRECT division, it is very frustrating when we see cashing PROS playing down, is all I am saying Dan.
Like I said, we all have our opinions, some right, some wrong. You have yours, I have mine, but don't try to make me sound like somebody that don't know what he is talking about. I have played this game long enough to know when a guy is PLAYING THE SYSTEM. And there are plenty that do that.
Like I said, like me or hate me, I don't care, but don't take jabs at my comments on a Public Forum dude! We all do have freedom to type ::)
Here are the top 10 IL money earners after the last update.
Chris Sprague $ 3491
Rob Strasser $ 1714
Brett Comincioli $ 967
Rod Ripper Fritz $ 782
Shawn E. Harmon $ 621
Ben Douglas $ 563
Todd Fanning $ 508
Chase Roberts $ 504
Roger Reyes $ 485
Ryan Gremillion $ 473
Currently there is no money in disc golf. We (Pros) play for each others money. Unless you are winning every event your aren't making much. I would bet Chris and Rob are the only 2 that have actually cleared their expenses.
I know being #3 in money won that I have not made enough money to clear my entry & travel expenses. On average i've won $120 per event. The average entry over those 8 events was $60.
I would encourage and have encouraged many amateurs to stay am until they are truely ready to play pro. I have seen way to many amateurs go pro in the short period of time i've been playing. Many of them quit playing within 2 years. The amateur divisions continue to grow in number while the pro divisions stay the same. We need guys go stick around this sport.
The difference about disc golf and other professional sports is that amateurs are allowed at any time to jump into the pro ranks. There is no qualifying process. There are a lot of local pros, including myself, that would not be able to compete if the best pros competed in the same place every week.
Quote from: pdga#7648 on July 20, 2009, 12:44:02 PM
wow, how did I know it would be you I would debate with??
Ok, by the PDGA RULES, he was able to play, so no it was NOT UNFAIR!!! Just wrong on his part(IN MY EYES, AND PLENTY OF OTHERS) You broke it down CLEARLY, he has CASHED in 43% of his tournys!!!! ALMOST HALF!! Do you cash in half of your ADVANCED tournaments??? I would say NO!, So your motivation to move up, will never come about, we know this. But for those that do compete in our CORRECT division, it is very frustrating when we see cashing PROS playing down, is all I am saying Dan.
Like I said, we all have our opinions, some right, some wrong. You have yours, I have mine, but don't try to make me sound like somebody that don't know what he is talking about. I have played this game long enough to know when a guy is PLAYING THE SYSTEM. And there are plenty that do that.
Like I said, like me or hate me, I don't care, but don't take jabs at my comments on a Public Forum dude! We all do have freedom to type ::)
Any chance you can type without going to capital letters and limit your exclamation marks? I have seen guys blow up and shoot bad, but no one I know of tanks rounds to keep their ratings down. If we were true amateurs we would play for trophy only and not accept any additional prizes. Who determines what is the correct division? I can play in 7 different divions, which is the right one for me? I am 100% for guys moving back and forth. For about 90% of the people there is zero money to be made in disc golf. The more people who continue to play, the more the sport will grow, and maybe one day there will be an opportunity to make some real money.
Quote from: CEValkyrie on July 20, 2009, 12:56:18 PM
Here are the top 10 IL money earners after the last update.
Chris Sprague $ 3491
Rob Strasser $ 1714
Brett Comincioli $ 967
Rod Ripper Fritz $ 782
Shawn E. Harmon $ 621
Ben Douglas $ 563
Todd Fanning $ 508
Chase Roberts $ 504
Roger Reyes $ 485
Ryan Gremillion $ 473
Currently there is no money in disc golf. We (Pros) play for each others money. Unless you are winning every event your aren't making much. I would bet Chris and Rob are the only 2 that have actually cleared their expenses.
I know being #3 in money won that I have not made enough money to clear my entry & travel expenses. On average i've won $120 per event. The average entry over those 8 events was $60.
I would encourage and have encouraged many amateurs to stay am until they are truely ready to play pro. I have seen way to many amateurs go pro in the short period of time i've been playing. Many of them quit playing within 2 years. The amateur divisions continue to grow in number while the pro divisions stay the same. We need guys go stick around this sport.
The difference about disc golf and other professional sports is that amateurs are allowed at any time to jump into the pro ranks. There is no qualifying process. There are a lot of local pros, including myself, that would not be able to compete if the best pros competed in the same place every week.
Brett I understand this 100%
I left playing as an Advanced player in 1999, came back 9 years later and rating was at 929, intermediate level. I played long enough to know I was better than intermediate( not fun winning tournaments if you play down to win it) local club members wouldn't let me play anything but Advanced or Pro. I toured last year as an advanced player, and did quite well in my eyes, after not competing in over 9 years. My rating shows I am Advanced now. But when and IF, I know its a BIG IF it ever gets to or over 970, I will move up. And never look back, cause the breakdown would tell me I was a Pro at 970. Maybe I will pay out more for travel, and entries, but does playing for the fun and love of the game leave after you turn pro? Sure, you can't win or cash everytime out, as we are all human, but to me if a rating system is in place to determine who is a Pro and who is an Amateur shouldn't it be used?
Like I said, we all have opinions, maybe mine is wrong this time. You guys clearly understand this more than I do I guess. Yes we all want this sport to grow, but many a players get frustrated when they see cashing pros playing against them.
Quote from: pdga#7648 on July 20, 2009, 01:48:20 PMMaybe I will pay out more for travel, and entries, but does playing for the fun and love of the game leave after you turn pro?
Pretty much.
There's no system that is fool proof and there's no system that is going to seem fair to everyone. However, I can highlight what we have done with the IOS over the years in order to promote people playing in competitive divisions.
1) Trophy only - this gives players the opportunity to play up without having to spend as much money. People who are at the bottom of any bracket can choose this also and get a player pack and a shot at CTPs and have fun playing.
2) Half-in for pros - similar to Trophy Only for ams this gives players a chance to play pro for half the price. Gives a higher rated amateur a chance to play with the pros and tip their toe in the water.
3) Novice division - if you offer a division, they will come! While the offering of the novice division does nothing to the upper divisions, it did give even lower rated amateurs a place to hop into the competitive disc golf experience.
4) Rating of non-PDGA players - thanks to the IOS Elves! This has really helped to keep the non-members playing in their correct divisions.
5) Offering all divisions as PDGA sanctioned at all of our events - I do know that there were some Illinois players who would "bag" in Intermediate or Rec on the non-sanctioned day and then win prizes in Advanced on the sanctioned day. Before the IOS started I think the only tournaments offering Intermediate and Recreational as sanctioned was Brian Cummings events.
6) Same entry fee for all amateur divisions - We didn't want a non-rated player to make a competitive decision based on their wallet. This is a concept that has NOT been adopted by very many TDs. It makes sense to the IOS trio. If Novice, Rec, Int, and Advanced are all $30 then we have removed one incentive to play down. Compare that to what a lot of tournaments offer with Novice being $20, Rec $25, Int $30 and Adv $40. A non-PDGA member walks up with $30 in his pocket expecting to play Int and finds out there's a $10 non-member fee. He doesn't borrow $10 to play Int, he just drops down to Novice!
7) We helped make it "safe" to play Recreational if your rating indicated that you could. I did this by example. And got some flack for it. Now no one around here even questions a player that has a solid Rec rating with years of ratings in their history. It used to be that you played Rec for a year and then moved up. This had the tendency to get a random spread of player abilities across all amateur divisions. Later we made it "safe" to play Novice.
8] Ams "cashing" in a pro division can take prizes instead of cash. Another incentive to give playing in a pro division a chance.
I am, of course, most proud of points one through 4 because they were all products of the IOS and first played at an IOS. They were all then adopted by the PDGA as regular PDGA tournament options.
I think as TDs we need to offer the players the most options to play fairly and competitively. But we can't force them. I'd love to end the MerchastravaganzaTM system of paying off amateurs in stacks of merch. We offer the option, trophy only, but we can't force them.
We have to be aware that players have the option to play our tournament with our options, another tournament with their options or darts or bowling or whatever. The PDGA has to be aware that if they institute changes that they can chase off the players to non-sanctioned tournaments or shadow sanctioned tournaments (or darts or bowling or whatever).
Finally we don't have a pro division. Disc golf has guys who play for merch and guys who play for each other's money. We better all be playing this for fun (including the TDs) because there's no money in it! If we continue to expand courses, tournaments, and the general player base of disc golfers then sponsorship for pros will naturally follow. But it does take time.
Quote from: pdga#7648 on July 20, 2009, 01:48:20 PM
Quote from: CEValkyrie on July 20, 2009, 12:56:18 PM
Here are the top 10 IL money earners after the last update.
Chris Sprague $ 3491
Rob Strasser $ 1714
Brett Comincioli $ 967
Rod Ripper Fritz $ 782
Shawn E. Harmon $ 621
Ben Douglas $ 563
Todd Fanning $ 508
Chase Roberts $ 504
Roger Reyes $ 485
Ryan Gremillion $ 473
Currently there is no money in disc golf. We (Pros) play for each others money. Unless you are winning every event your aren't making much. I would bet Chris and Rob are the only 2 that have actually cleared their expenses.
I know being #3 in money won that I have not made enough money to clear my entry & travel expenses. On average i've won $120 per event. The average entry over those 8 events was $60.
I would encourage and have encouraged many amateurs to stay am until they are truely ready to play pro. I have seen way to many amateurs go pro in the short period of time i've been playing. Many of them quit playing within 2 years. The amateur divisions continue to grow in number while the pro divisions stay the same. We need guys go stick around this sport.
The difference about disc golf and other professional sports is that amateurs are allowed at any time to jump into the pro ranks. There is no qualifying process. There are a lot of local pros, including myself, that would not be able to compete if the best pros competed in the same place every week.
Brett I understand this 100%
I left playing as an Advanced player in 1999, came back 9 years later and rating was at 929, intermediate level. I played long enough to know I was better than intermediate( not fun winning tournaments if you play down to win it) local club members wouldn't let me play anything but Advanced or Pro. I toured last year as an advanced player, and did quite well in my eyes, after not competing in over 9 years. My rating shows I am Advanced now. But when and IF, I know its a BIG IF it ever gets to or over 970, I will move up. And never look back, cause the breakdown would tell me I was a Pro at 970. Maybe I will pay out more for travel, and entries, but does playing for the fun and love of the game leave after you turn pro? Sure, you can't win or cash everytime out, as we are all human, but to me if a rating system is in place to determine who is a Pro and who is an Amateur shouldn't it be used?
Like I said, we all have opinions, maybe mine is wrong this time. You guys clearly understand this more than I do I guess. Yes we all want this sport to grow, but many a players get frustrated when they see cashing pros playing against them.
Doug,
I would say yes some of the fun does leave you when you start playing pro. It's more expensive and some mental changes that are hard to control take place. I've seen it in full effect. It's hard to explain.
I do agree the ratings system is a useful tool to decide when to move up but my view of the sport is a little different. I see all the divisions and the majority of tournaments as amateur events and divisions. If this game ever goes mainstream players like myself will be back playing amateur disc golf. The true pros who qualify will be playing for the big bucks.
Alex Bingman has played pro for many years. He rating allowed him to play the Chicagoland Am Champs back in May. He's been playing that course for years. He had the day of his life getting a chance to play an event on one of his favorite courses. I was very happy for him.
I think 7648's main problem is that a lot changed gradually while he was away, and he did not participate in the debate at the time.
I think by now most players have seen that ratings work better than community standards for sorting players into skill based divisions. I've seen that my 939 rating, and the lower ratings of my wife and kids, mean the same thing, relative to the field, whether we're playing in Iowa, Kentucky, Alabama or Pennsylvania. I can travel to Pennsylvania or southern Ohio and do very well against the "Advanced" field, but I'll shoot similar scores to the players rated in the 930s and 940s who are playing Open.
Where we set the breaks for different divisions is somewhat arbitrary, but if only advanced players play advanced, they can compete with the pros who are allowed to play down. If they cannot compete with those pros, those pros will get a rating that does not allow them to play down. Usually the people grousing about pros playing am are intermediates playing advanced!
Not that many pros do play down, but it is especially useful for getting pro women and old guy pros to play more tournaments. Most of the pros playing am that I've seen are pro women and pro grand masters who don't always have opponents in their prefered division and are not competitive at all in Open.
Nick Kight used to complain about the move up, move up, move out system we had that forced people to move up and eventually go pro or quit playing just because they had one or two good tournaments. Most newer players have no idea what i'm talking about. Bump rules have been abolished for so long, most players don't know what they were. The system now is move up, move up, oh, move back down if you want, and it keeps more players in the game. I've seen some of the bumped up, moved out players come back to the game.
Quote from: pdga#7648 on July 20, 2009, 12:44:02 PM
wow, how did I know it would be you I would debate with??
Like I said, like me or hate me, I don't care, but don't take jabs at my comments on a Public Forum dude! We all do have freedom to type ::)
You have absolutely exercised your freedom to type quite extensively over the past month, I don't think anybody has restricted you and I'm not telling you to stop, public forums are intended for these types of debates. I enjoy hearing your point of view. To tell me not to take 'jabs' at you is a bit hypocritical though when you've just stated that Mike Robinson clearly did the wrong thing by playing Advanced at Rockford. I merely corrected some of your facts and suggested why somebody in his position might want to play in an amateur division.
Dan, Playing a Am tourny if your 970 clearly states you are a Pro, in my eyes I guess was wrong. Like I said if I ever get to 970, I wont play Ams anymore. Clearly alot of others have a different concept of this game. To be rated high enough to be considered a Professional, should encourage that person to play what his rating says he is.
Like Bruce said, alot changed since I last played in 1999, I just need to adapt to those things and move on. Like I said before, 40 is just around the corner, if I can get to 970 in 2 years, Pro Masters will be my division. I may donate for awhile, but I will end up competing in that division. Promise! ;)
Quote from: pdga#7648 on July 20, 2009, 04:09:58 PM
Dan, Playing a Am tourny if your 970 clearly states you are a Pro, in my eyes I guess was wrong. Like I said if I ever get to 970, I wont play Ams anymore. Clearly alot of others have a different concept of this game. To be rated high enough to be considered a Professional, should encourage that person to play what his rating says he is.
Like Bruce said, alot changed since I last played in 1999, I just need to adapt to those things and move on. Like I said before, 40 is just around the corner, if I can get to 970 in 2 years, Pro Masters will be my division. I may donate for awhile, but I will end up competing in that division. Promise! ;)
You aren't "wrong" it's just that not everyone shares that opinion. If I had the ability, health and determination to be a consistent 970 rated player I would probably play pro locally, turn down the prizes and play Advanced at majors and worlds. I don't think that makes me wrong but I can see that other people might not agree with the decision.
Quote from: Chainmeister on July 20, 2009, 10:31:09 AM
Whoa, Buddy.
All this means is that Kris whoever he is had a great day...
Quote from: pdga#7648 on July 20, 2009, 10:07:37 AM
That rating system is the WORST thing the PDGA has done in years.
Look at the IOS#3 last weekend. That Kris that won in Advanced was a 921 rating. Look at all the 960's, 950's, and 940's he beat. Is his 921 better than 966?? NO, but he shot better. Ratings shouldn't mean ANYTHING to the AM players. Anyone can shoot bad and keep their rating low, to always assure themselves of picking up plastic for winning tournaments in lower divisions.
I don't mean to be piling on here, but I'm not sure what point is trying to be made about IOS #3. I shot w/ Kris 2nd round on Saturday. Local guy, great to play with. He shot as badly as I did the first round, did quite a bit better the 2nd, tore it up on Sunday. I'd never make any assumption that he was playing badly Sat on purpose, if that's the implication; rather that he's a 920-930+ player who's a bit inconsistent. (which is why he's around 935 now instead of, say, 970...)
I think the rating system has brought more players into tournament play than driven them away. But from my perspective, the trophy-only concept (which, if it wasn't invented by IOS, has certainly had an influence) has kind of spoiled me. I've passed on a couple of tournaments already this year because of high entry fees. As anyone who's seen my 'discs in a box' can attest, I've got way too much plastic already; my competitive drive is at a low ebb and my game this year has reeked anyhow, so I'm getting more out of playing a couple rounds at a leisurely pace for nothing, by myself or with a friend or two (hmm, let's see; yes, I do have at least two friends....) rather than a couple of 3-hour stress-filled rounds on that same course for $30+ for a shot at getting even more discs... 8)
Damon, I wasn't saying anything about Kris shooting bad on Saturday then winning on Sunday. An intermediate winning an Advanced tourny is great.
Side note: I believe that when Mike won the Illinois Open he was only rated in the 950s.
i just wanna say i know Kris and he is a great player and wouldn't shoot bad one day then tear it up the next on purpose. he has only been a member for not even a year now and has played intermediate to see where he would be place among the rest of the players. after he has played a few tournaments and now has had his 2nd ratings update he will be in advanced. i have beaten many people above my rating, does that mean I should have to only play people at that rating? you play where you are likely to improve' that's why you are rated to competitively play disc golf against others of the same skill. some times people do have bad days and throw bad and make up for it the next.
Quote from: dana on July 21, 2009, 10:30:43 AM
Side note: I believe that when Mike won the Illinois Open he was only rated in the 950s.
actually it was 962 :o
Fact checker: Michael Robinson #24414 24-Jun-2008 962 64
Oh, well that same month he won the IL Open he moved down to 957. I guess I remember the update occurring right after the event?
Correct, in the update a couple days later he went down to 957. Not exactly a bagger.
Quote from: pickax on July 21, 2009, 11:57:04 AM
Correct, in the update a couple days later he went down to 957. Not exactly a bagger.
Untrue. He beat me in that tournament, hence he is a BAGGER.
It's like that old George Carlin joke. Anyone going slower than you is an idiot and anyone going faster than you is a maniac. Anyone playing in your division with a higher rating is a bagger and anyone with a rating lower than you playing in a higher division is a dreamer! ;D
hey this is kris i was told about these post today and figured i'd just make my own comment on this and believe me i had a bad day on saturday which happens especially at your home course u have days like that i was dissapointed in myself more then n e thing about that day but if you ask anybody I've ever playd with whether i shot good or bad i don't complain about anybody beatn me regardless of division people have good days and bad days im sure u have 2 otherwise you'd be a pro instead of a advanced player right? but even if my rating wasnt goin up i was going 2 start playn advanced after IOS#3 anyways cause I'm having a good year and i feel advanced is the division i should be playing the last two years though probably not. so theres no playing bad to keep my rating in intermediate who wants to stay back in lower division and believe me if i could take some cash home instead of discs believe me it would help my bank account out alot but i love playn disc golf for the competition im a competitive player but not a sore loser. and doug u never know u could start having some bad few years and you could be playn intermediate at 40 then we could be calling u a bagger
peace out girlscout
any one got a problem with me playing novice at IOS Fairfield
839
two T;s this year
IN state and Adler
If that's what your rated, that's where you should play. If my rating dropped down to 849. I would have played MA4. Fortune has smiled on Dave and Diana.
Mike
You are 841 and you should be able to play Novice without getting any crap from anybody unless your wife has an opinion. ;D Look forward to playing with you. (Bagger... ;D)
Quote from: jynx on July 25, 2009, 09:21:15 PM
hey this is kris i was told about these post today and figured i'd just make my own comment on this and believe me i had a bad day on saturday which happens especially at your home course u have days like that i was dissapointed in myself more then n e thing about that day but if you ask anybody I've ever playd with whether i shot good or bad i don't complain about anybody beatn me regardless of division people have good days and bad days im sure u have 2 otherwise you'd be a pro instead of a advanced player right? but even if my rating wasnt goin up i was going 2 start playn advanced after IOS#3 anyways cause I'm having a good year and i feel advanced is the division i should be playing the last two years though probably not. so theres no playing bad to keep my rating in intermediate who wants to stay back in lower division and believe me if i could take some cash home instead of discs believe me it would help my bank account out alot but i love playn disc golf for the competition im a competitive player but not a sore loser. and doug u never know u could start having some bad few years and you could be playn intermediate at 40 then we could be calling u a bagger
peace out girlscout
Well put, I agree with all 4 of your sentences. ;D Just keep on competing and having fun bro!
Quote from: pdga#7648 on July 20, 2009, 09:03:11 PM
Damon, I wasn't saying anything about Kris shooting bad on Saturday then winning on Sunday. An intermediate winning an Advanced tourny is great.
never was a shot at you Kris. It was a shot at the rating system.
Like most topics here, again this was a topic taken the wrong way.
But I will never go back to intermediate, no matter what the ratings show. I am called a bagger here at home, so to be called one from out of towners wouldn't hurt.
Quote from: airspuds on August 18, 2009, 05:10:58 PM
any one got a problem with me playing novice at IOS Fairfield
839
two T;s this year
IN state and Adler
If that's your rating, you should play Am 4, Novice.
Diana played pretty good last weekend, but i think she's Am 4 Life.
Kelsey tossed a 961 into her stats last weekend.
Quote from: Dan Michler on August 18, 2009, 06:54:44 PM
Quote from: jynx on July 25, 2009, 09:21:15 PM
hey this is kris i was told about these post today and figured i'd just make my own comment on this and believe me i had a bad day on saturday which happens especially at your home course u have days like that i was dissapointed in myself more then n e thing about that day but if you ask anybody I've ever playd with whether i shot good or bad i don't complain about anybody beatn me regardless of division people have good days and bad days im sure u have 2 otherwise you'd be a pro instead of a advanced player right? but even if my rating wasnt goin up i was going 2 start playn advanced after IOS#3 anyways cause I'm having a good year and i feel advanced is the division i should be playing the last two years though probably not. so theres no playing bad to keep my rating in intermediate who wants to stay back in lower division and believe me if i could take some cash home instead of discs believe me it would help my bank account out alot but i love playn disc golf for the competition im a competitive player but not a sore loser. and doug u never know u could start having some bad few years and you could be playn intermediate at 40 then we could be calling u a bagger
peace out girlscout
Well put, I agree with all 4 of your sentences. ;D Just keep on competing and having fun bro!
There were four sentences in that? ::)
Funniest thread I've read in a while.
Love,
The Biggest Bagger ever.
P.S. I'm off to tank some more rounds so I can play advanced again.