2011 IOS Input Wanted

[Jwt4412]

If the IOS can avoid the impression of unilateral decisions and actively engage local entities in a cooperative effort, I believe most of the hurdles barring expansion could be overcome.

My issue with this is:  If you are the one putting in the man-hours and taking on the financial risk of running a disc golf tournament, shouldn't you make 'unilateral decisions'?

yes!

the fact that this is even an issue is appalling.

Not only is IOS welcomed to run an event in Springfield, it actually is encouraged by the locals...  I am at a loss why any group of locals would be adverse to having a well run series event played on their local courses...

We would welcome the opportunity for Lincoln and Douglas to be exposed to more Chicagoland players... 54 holes of disc golf - 5 minutes apart.  Once played... you'll be back.  Once our locals play within IOS system, more likely to travel to play...  I know the BNdisc crew loves to play in IOS events.

Just sayin'.

[Dag]

If the IOS can avoid the impression of unilateral decisions and actively engage local entities in a cooperative effort, I believe most of the hurdles barring expansion could be overcome.

My issue with this is:  If you are the one putting in the man-hours and taking on the financial risk of running a disc golf tournament, shouldn't you make 'unilateral decisions'?

The concerns with running a tournament long distance expressed in the earlier "IOS Scope" thread may reduced or eliminated by sharing responsibility with partners more local to the venue. A local partner will be better able to effectively work with the controlling body for the course (park district, etc...), be better able to prepare the course in advance and be better able to engage the local disc golf community. In many cases it may not be necessary to put in all the man-hours and it is not necessary to take on all the financial risk so there is no advantage to a unilateral effort.

To clarify something in my original post, the operative phrase is "impression of unilateral decisions" rather than "unilateral decisions" alone. I wrote this to avoid passing judgement on actions for which folks will have divergent opinions. The point here is not to revive old feuds but to acknowledge them as past and move on to more productive relationships.

[Jon Brakel]

One reason that we are discussing changes is because the economics of running disc golf tournaments continues to evolve. Bruce, Brett and I came up with a system that gave a high value of return to the player while covering all expenses...or so we thought. It took Bruce getting out of the merch man biz to realize that we were cutting the process too close to the bone for him to be assured of breaking even on the process.

To give you some perspective, this year at the A tier and Sinnissippi I lost money. At Waukegan and Round Lake I made up that difference to finish at even. The other IOS events I was a volunteer and did not receive any compensation. I am fine with breaking even. I do this for the love of the game, not for money. At the same tournaments Scott was losing money for every amateur player and not always making it up on cash sales.

Every partner in the IOS system needs to know going in that they will not lose money. So the bottom line is that the process needs to compensate Scott $2 more per player so that Scott is assured of a break even point for each tournament.

Currently we offer a $15 player pack to each amateur. At most of the IOS events we only take $10 per player out of the payout for the player pack. We could make up the deficit by valuing the $15 player pack at $15. In effect we could keep all other aspects of the tournament the same but reduce the payout per player by $5. This would also give us a $.50 per player budget for overalls and we could fun more of our 50/50 ctps as A tier fund raisers.

There is a historical reason for why we under value the player pack by $5 but 6 years later I'm willing to be over it!

[Bruce Brakel]

Scott has the same pricing problem that a lot of merch guys have: he is keeping the price of Innova artificially low while trying to make it up by overpricing the Discraft.  Scott's funny money prices on Innova are unchanged from what I was charging 5 years ago when I was just passing along the actual cost to the tournament.  Innova and Discraft have both had three or four price increases during that time.  Scott could get his $2 more per player just by passing along the outrageous price of Innova to the players who want to throw Innova. 

Based on the longstanding funny money reimbursement rate, if I were the merch guy getting the same deals that Scott gets my prices on custom stamped stuff would have to be:

----------- Innova --- Discraft
D ------------ 10 -------- 10 ---
Pro/X ------ 14 -------- 12 ---
Champ/Z - 18 -------- 14 ---
Star/ESP - 21 -------- 16 ---

If you need to water down payouts for Scott to break even on funny money sales, I think he should address his 2005 pricing policies.  If Innova and Discraft are going to charge 2011 prices in 2011, Scott needs to get out of 2005.  And really, why should a Discraft throwing player be subsidizing the funny money price of Innova?

[smyith]

wow bruce, i didnt know that. i bet if those are the prices he went with alot of people would slowly convert over to discraft. innova seems to be taking some curious directions with their marketing. i wonder what their up to?

after thinking about it more i would rather have smaller players pack and higher payouts (if possible)

[Bruce Brakel]

A lot of people switched to Discraft when I was charging prices that reflected actual costs, which back then were

----------- Innova --- Discraft
D ------------ 8 -------- 8 ---
Pro/X ------ 12 -------- 10 ---
Champ/Z - 16 -------- 12 ---
Star/ESP - 18 -------- 12 ---

or something like that depending on what year it was.

Innova has always charged a lot more than Discraft for custom stamped discs.  It has always been a pet peeve of mine that TDs and tournament merchlords charge the same for Innova and Discraft, effectively subsidizing the price of Innova with their savings on Discraft.  I throw Discraft.  It costs less.  It pisses me off to pay more for my Discraft so an Innova thrower can pay less.

[Sr.]

Scott deserves more money in my opinion. The work involved is unreal. IOS has to survive. Thanks everyone!

[OvEr HaNd AsSaSiN]

21 for star ? no comment

[Jwt4412]

Bruce's number crunching is correct, although I would say it was 17.00 for champ and 19.00 for star based upon the pricing I have been exposed to...  But the pricing I have been exposed to requires a minimum of 25 of each mold at time of purchase and maybe Bruce's is seeing pricing that allows someone to get fewer of each mold at one time...

[Jon Brakel]

What I take from Bruce's posts is that the merch guy's costs should be taken on the pricing side of the discs rather than on the prize purse side. That makes sense to me. I've always supported the idea that disc retail prices should be based on the cost. The funny money cost should also be based on the actual delivered cost as well.

[Bruce Brakel]

My pricing included shipping and sales tax.  I know some people don't include shipping and sales tax when they talk about the cost of discs...just wanted to make sure you knew I was including those costs for my example.

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Note, this was heavily edited by Jon Brakel, the moderator, in order that the communication stays clear and we don't get too off topic.
My appologies to Bruce if he is offended that I changed his post. I'll buy lunch next time! 
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I put the rest of the off topic posts here: http://discontinuum.org/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=5305.0
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[Ron Huebner]

I'll take the risk of getting this thread back on topic with my input on IOS.

1. Entry fees need to be sustainable for the IOS continue, but if the fees were lower then I would prefer smaller payouts.
2. Keep the $15 player pack.
3. B-Tier is a plus.
4. I liked the number of IOS events this year.
5. I would be less likely to attend events further away than a 2 hour drive.
6. Trophy-only with a player pack is an option I might consider.

What makes the IOS events fun is that the organizers don't get in the way of having a pleasant day of disc golf. The merchandise side of the tournament is well run, things move at a good pace, scores are often posted by the time I get home, and the value for the amateur golfer is generous.

[Jon Brakel]

Thanks Ron!

[Fox Metro Discer]

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to make many events this year due to many reasons, but I thought I would still throw in my two cents.

I love the IOS series because I know exactly what I am getting myself into each time I sign up to play. I am going to get good value for my dollar in both a players choice players pack and payouts (when I play well enough to earn one). I am also going to be starting on time (both rounds), playing more than the standard 18 holes at any given course, the awards ceremony is going to be rolling in a few minutes after the last card comes in, there is always a great selection of discs available at tourney central, the event is going to be well staffed and therefore run smoothly (thank you volunteers!!!!!!!),  and I know I am going to see some of my friends that I only get to see at events.
With that being said, my thoughts on the threee questions posed at the beginning of the topic are as follows:

1) I would attend an IOS event regardless of the tier. I do not have the time to play enough events for the tier to really matter much to me. With Worlds no longer having an "invite only" format, I can wait until registration opens to any PDGA member. However, I would like to continue to see an A tier event through the IOS. It is nice to have a 2 day event that runs smoothly!

2) My thoughts on this are mixed. My first thought is, as an AM shouldn't we be doing what every other amateur in every other sport does, play without any payouts? It would definately encourge those who strive to get paid to play to step up and either jump into the fire and play pro or work their way up to it. I also know that I have been playing long enough to know that that idea would never go over with the masses. As a parent in these economic times, saving $5 anywhere I can is a bonus. If this were to happen I would like to see the player pack reduced to $10. The majority of players I see at IOS events are repeat "customers" for lack of a better term. The great thing about IOS events is that the funney money can be saved and used at another time. With this method method players can save up and get that disc they want or bag they say and gotta have.

3) The only other idea I would throw out there is that if Scott is going to hand out the cards for both players packs and payouts, why not put some sort of bar code/ number system on it for internet use. With his website I would think it would be a good idea to make use of that if Scott does not want to haul out a half to of pllastic all ver the state for every evnet. This would allow him to be able to not only carry less invntory to the events but allow the players to shop at their leisure as well help get Scott's company out to more people playing the sport.

The last thing I would like to say is, as a fellow TD is hard to make a tournament run smoothly, much less 7 or more events every year. Illinois is lucky to have a crew so dedicated to the sport, its players, and excellence in performance of this series. I am grateful to everyone that has a helping hend in this series. I know that there are a lot of you! I cannot wait for the 2011 season!!!

[The Bogey Man]

Whatever the outcome for IOS, i plan on attending as many as possible.
Really enjoyed them in 2009.
Happy to see that you folks had nine events. makes me smile. 

I would like to play an A-Tier for 2011 in the IOS.

Ron- Bump for your comments.

[roman]

1. The tier of the event doesn't really matter to me. I'm not chasing points.

2. I like the current player pack and payout structure. I don't always cash in tournaments, but I really don't care because usually I have a player pack that's enough for me to satisfy my craving for more plastic. If the player pack was lowered from $15 to $10 that would pretty much limit my purchasing ability to just base plastic discs and I would be less willing to pony up the extra few bucks to buy anything in premium plastic.

3. I like the idea of having IOS partners. Illinois has some great courses down south. I can't say I am able to attend every tournament south of I-80, but those courses have their own players that can help fill the tournament. It would give me a greater sense of accomplishment to place well among Illinois players than Chicago players. That's one of the reasons I always wanted the IOS series to cover Illinois, not just the Chicago area, but that's a subject that has been covered many times and I won't get further into it.

I would go out of my way to plan to play a future IOS tournament at some of the courses in Peoria, B/N, or Springfield area. A tournament in Centralia would be absolutely fantastic. I prefer quality over quantity/location. Part of the reason I did not attend the invitational this year is because of the location. I don't care that it's a free event, I didn't particularly enjoy the idea of playing four rounds at a short 9 hole course. Instead I spent that day playing Grey Fox and had a great time.

My ideal IOS locations would include Bevier, Anna Page, Highland Park, Eagle Ridge, Sinnissippi, McNaughton, Eureka, Lincoln Park, Centralia, and Alton. There are lots of great courses in this state. I would love to play an IOS-quality tournament at all of them.

[The Bogey Man]

Just wondering if there is a Calendar that shows what 2011 tournements (finalized or not) are in Illinois? Maybe even what is in mind for IOS?  

[Bruce Brakel]

For the IOS, check out www.illinoisopenseries.com.

For Illinois, usually www.illinoisdiscgolf.com has it all. 

Will the elves be calculating elf ratings this year? 

[pickax]

Will the elves be calculating elf ratings this year? 

Yes the elves continue to help out in the data mining business. The dwarves, thankfully, haven't complained that non-dwarfs are mining.

[Bruce Brakel]

I noticed today that IOS #1 is on illinoisopenseries.com.  I did not check pdga.com.  I'd start a thread, but I'll leave that to Jon or Scott.  But here's what is on the website:

IOS # 1 - Dave Pitner Memorial
Community Park, Channahon, IL
May 14 & 15, 2011
PDGA C/B Tier

Community Park is one of the best kept disc golf courses in Illinois. With a mix of distance and elevation, Community park is a balanced course to check all parts of your game.

Pre-registration Information
TBD

Check-in: 7:45-8:45am
Players meeting 9:15am

Tournament Director:
Scott Pitner

Merchandise Director:
Scott Pitner
Paperorplasticsports.com