Lake County Forest Preserve

[CEValkyrie]

You know what is funny. If 38% of the users who voted for disc golf used the facility it would move to #2 on the most used according to their survey.

[Mike Clark]

Been reading up on the LCFP $185m referendum today.  I've been clinging to thread of hope that if it passes might help our cause of getting a course installed on land ideally sutied for the game.  But then I saw this survey result on their website:

"The survey also showed that people didn't support constructing a disc golf course on Forest Preserve property (only a 3.8 out of 10 rating), confirming a recent decision by a Forest Preserve Committee to leave provision of disc golf courses to park districts and other local park and recreation agencies."

http://www.lcfpd.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.details&intObjectId=26543

Anyone know about this survey?  I wish I did, and I know a lot of people that would have supported it had they known about it.  I hope we get a second chance and they do the same survey next year.

I did not hear about this survey until this post. I use the Forest Preserves and I vote.

I wonder how many of those people approve of the following recreations:

Dog Sled Park. No its not a joke.
http://www.lcfpd.org/preserves/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.view&object_id=161&type=P

Model Airplane Field.
http://www.lcfpd.org/preserves/index.cfm?fuseaction=preserves.viewActDetail&object_id=139

Oh wait. Did they even ask about those?

I wonder if the survey asked about how people feel about this debacle:
http://www.lcfpd.org/about/index.cfm?fuseaction=land.detailImprovement&intObjectID=20492&intPreserveImprovement=609

I guess dogs have more rights to recreation in Lake County, IL then Disc Golfers. Dog exercise parks. 4 of them.
http://www.lcfpd.org/preserves/index.cfm?fuseaction=preserves.viewActDetail&object_id=130

The best part of all this to me is that they already have Golf, 4 - 18 hole courses, in the LCFPD and they still find reasons to say no. And not a single golf course they operate is financially self supporting. They can choose to see it differently but I think they are wrong to do so. If you have Golf I do not understand needing to approve Disc Golf as a recreation. To me they are the same recreation using different tools. Disc Golf is all about trying to be part of nature. The basic principal of Disc Golf is to leave the course in better shape then it was when you got there. I truly hope that someday someone is able to help them see that Disc Golf is a perfect fit for their recreational goals. Until then I will be more than happy to remind everyone I can of their hypocrisy.  I have heard dozens of excuses from the board and not a single one of them valid IMO.

They have the land. They have the money. They do not understand what Disc Golf is. From my experience they do not care to educate themselves about Disc Golf. They support a lot of other forms of recreation including Golf. But not Disc Golf.

IMO the only way to change their mind is political pressure. The LCFPD board members are the same people elected to the Lake County Board of Commissioners, http://www.lcfpd.org/about/index.cfm?fuseaction=about.viewBoardMeetings . Enough Disc Golfers, including family and friends, have to make a big enough deal about Disc Golf to them to make them feel that if they do not support Disc Golf that they will lose your vote. We need a bigger voice then we currently have. There are 100's of Disc Golfers who live in Lake County. I am pretty sure that there are more Disc Golfers then there are Dog Sledders and Model Airplane Fliers in Lake County, IL. Speak up let them know how you feel.

[cjordan]

well now that some new board members were voted in to the lake county forest preserve board. maybe the outcome of getting a disc golf course on county land may happen.

[CEValkyrie]

I looked thru all the elections and it looks like the majority of those opposed to disc golf were reelected or were not contested. One of the supporters of disc golf did not win.
http://results.enr.clarityelections.com/IL/Lake/7239/13120/en/summary.html

[Dan Michler]

I guess dogs have more rights to recreation in Lake County, IL then Disc Golfers. Dog exercise parks. 4 of them.

There are alot more people who want to exercise their dogs than people who would probably use a pay-to-play disc golf course.  I'm pretty sure thats more about the dog-owners than the rights of the animals    Also dog exercise areas take up alot less room than a disc golf course would.

I've personally given up hope on this dream that started 3 years ago.  It seems that the LCFP made it clear they are not interested.  We can post a link, and the same 30-50 people can all write another email to the Board members, but I really don't think they are going to find out anything new thats going to change their mind.

I'm not trying to bring anybody down here, I'm just posting from a realistic point of view after reading angry messages on here for the last few years.  Maybe we should just let this lay dormant for awhile and look for other opportunities elsewhere.  This is a long way from every actually happening, IMO.

[CEValkyrie]

I think that is the problem with this area. There really aren't too many areas that I am aware of that are suitable for the disc golf course we are hoping for.

I blame most of this on the players and the sport in general. Why you ask?
I have a a copy of the LCFPD survey they sent out to all the local park districts in the area.

1. Not enough interest from players. It's been posted about meetings and where to send e-mails or call. Less than a handful attended meetings and i'm sure there were not too many that e-mailed or called the LCFPD.
2. This past election.

In a nutshell here is what they concluded about disc golf.
1. The perception of disc golf. Stoners, drunks, vandals, and litterers. Additional policing would be needed.
2.  Area courses. Erosion. The nasty look of worn out areas around tee pads. Broken vegetation.

I don't think keeping quiet is the way to go though. Until there is a demand for disc golf they won't consider it. I agree with Mike, the LCFPD offers many things people aren't interested in. Pay to play was never in the plans. This would immediately become one of their most used facilites if they installed a quality course.

[Dan Michler]

In a nutshell here is what they concluded about disc golf.
1. The perception of disc golf. Stoners, drunks, vandals, and litterers. Additional policing would be needed.
2.  Area courses. Erosion. The nasty look of worn out areas around tee pads. Broken vegetation.

Their perception is based on fact.  I think we've been over this a million times on this forum.  If they are frightened of these things then I'm not sure they should want to install a disc golf course.  Look at Farifield or Adler and both of the above observations are running rampant.

I think several disc golfers in the area have done a good job making LCFP aware that disc golf is an option.  Their land isn't going anywhere and the sport isn't going away.  When they want to install a course they will.

[Mike Clark]

Keeping quiet on the issue will not accomplish anything positive. This is a political issue at the moment. Without people speaking up they have no reason to change their mind.

I will never stop pursuing disc golf in the LCFPD. For 2 reasons.
1. They have the money to do it right. An 18hole course would cost less they what they spend on a single picnic pavilion or bridge.
2. They have the land to do it right. They own more than 26,500 acres. To not let disc golfers use 40-60 acres is embarrassing to me.

There is no better option in Lake County, IL. The IL state parks have no money to put into any projects. But they do have the land. The local park districts that do have the land let high school kids or play ground designers build/design their courses.
If anyone has any better options and they need help please let me know and I will be more than happy to help.

The perception is correct. But if this is this is the reason to not install a course then they should shut down more than half of their preserves. They have stoners, drunks, vandals , and litterers on every piece of property that I have ever been to. Hell every year they are pulling up and burning weed that people are growing in the forest preserves.

The courses in this area have erosion problems and look like crap because no one maintains them. I think Bevier is a good local example of what a good course can look like if taken care of. LCFPD does a great job of taking care of their property. I do not think this would any different then the issues they already deal with in their current preserves.

I think a huge part of the issue is the way they are set up. I would like to know why Lake County and Cook County do not have county parks like their neighboring states. I am not sure about the rest of Illinois. Some of the best Disc Golf courses I have seen across the country are in County parks. Some are in state parks. Very few of them are in city or village park districts. Lake County wants us to go to the local park districts for Disc Golf courses. Kind of funny seeing as how everytime there is a large piece of land available in Lake County LCFPD buys it. So how is a local park district supposed to even acquire the land required for a good course. The simple fact that the only research they did was to survey local parks was a joke. They were told flat out at the first meeting I went to that the parks/courses in our area are horrible examples of a disc golf course. If the local parks provided the service we were looking for why would we have gone to the LCFPD asking to have a course installed.

Yes people use the dog parks. Alot of people would use a disc golf course if they chose to install one. I believe that it would be in the top 5 of the most used facilities within 1 year of it being installed. Over time I believe that they would sell as many permits to a disc golf course that they do for the dog parks. The LCFPD Dog parks are huge. You could put multiple disc golf courses in the one down on Fairfield and 176.

I know they do not want pay to play. If it is to be a disc golf only facility. Just like the dog sled area, model airplane field, and dog exercise parks are for those uses only. It only makes sense that is a facility that requires a permit to use. Plus it would eliminate most of the issues discussed above.

Getting a championship caliber course installed in our area has become an obsession of mine over the past year. And I will not stop until we get one. There is no valid reason why Lake County Disc Golfers do not deserve one of the best if not the best course in the country. And I feel that LCFPD is our best option.

[airspuds]

The perception of disc golf. Stoners, drunks, vandals, and litterers. Additional policing would be needed.

*-------++


Think if governmental officials played disc golf - they would pull all the courses

Anyone have a list of all the convicted gov officials

Someone smoking a joint vs taking bribes for licenses

thank God george ryan doesnt play
or we would all be branded child killers

ny gov  -  prositution
mn senator -  banned from  all airport restrooms
the list is endless

actually i think i see more non smokers on the courses now than when
i started playing

[deucemeister]

What it will take is someone on the inside who will champion the idea; it sounds as if the only person who was in favor was voted out.    WIthout someone on the inside pushing this through, it will be an excercise in futility to continue to solicit the idea with those who have already nixed it.  I would estimate that all who were against it have never played.   Best way would be to invite them out for a round with some of the top tier players and judge for themselves.

example; recently while playing at New Lenox,  we (group of old timers playing since late 70's) were approached by an interested spectator who was having a picnic with a group there and watching us.   He approached us after we finished and were having a brew in the parking lot; we talked for some time and he threw a few of our discs and was totally psyched; turns out  he is the Park District director in Kankakee, and said he will push to get an 18 holer in at a Park he knows would be perfect; covered in large Oaks.

[CEValkyrie]

There have been several insiders that have pushed for disc golf. There were 3 of 4 heavily promoting for disc golf.

The problem with the LCFPD is they have 23 board of commissioners. Each are on at least 1 of the 4 separate committees. It's tough to persuade that many people when they have no clue what you are talking about. I was so frustrated sitting in those meetings only getting a few minutes to tell them your opinion. The rest of the time you just have to sit there silent with no input while they spout out ignorant things.

Below are the boards. I've invited the entire board to come out to several local events. Not 1 showed up.

Here they are.
Executive AdvisoryPresident, Bonnie Thomson Carter, Ingleside
Vice President, Angelo D. Kyle, Waukegan 
Carol Calabresa, Libertyville
Ann B. Maine, Lincolnshire
Stevenson Mountsier, Lake Barrington
Pamela O. Newton, Vernon Hills
Audrey H. Nixon, North Chicago

Planning and Restoration
Chair, Carol Calabresa, Libertyville
Vice Chair, Susan Loving Gravenhorst, Lake Bluff
Mary Ross Cunningham, Waukegan
Judy Martini, Antioch
Brent Paxton, Zion
Robert Powers, Round Lake Beach
Robert G. Sabonjian, Waukegan
Carol Spielman, Highland Park
David B. Stolman, Buffalo Grove

Land Preservation and Acquisition
Chair, Ann B. Maine, Lincolnshire
Vice Chair, Diana O'Kelly, Mundelein
Stevenson Mountsier, Lake Barrington
Suzi Schmidt, Lake Villa
Angelo D. Kyle, Waukegan
Larry Leafblad, Grayslake
Michael Talbett, Lake Zurich

Finance, Administrative and Education
Chair, Stevenson Mountsier, Lake Barrington
Vice Chair, Pamela O. Newton, Vernon Hills
Anne Flanigan Bassi, Highland Park
Stephen Carlson, Gurnee
Terese Douglass, Grayslake
Audrey H. Nixon, North Chicago
Randy Whitmore, Wadsworth

[Mike Clark]

Just want to put the LCFPD's Mission Statement on here for the record. This should clear up any misunderstandings about their responsibilities to the residents, including disc golfers, of Lake County. Remember they are in office represent all of us not who they choose to.

"To Preserve a Dynamic and Unique System
of Natural and Cultural Resources,
and to Develop Innovative Educational,
Recreational, and Cultural Opportunities
of Regional Value, while Exercising
Environmental and Fiscal Responsibility."

I have a really hard time trying to understand how Disc Golf does not fit in this mission statement.

This Mission Statement and more information can be found in this document.
http://www.lcfpd.org/docs/media_pub_23850.pdf

[Tom McManus]

Just want to put the LCFPD's Mission Statement on here for the record. This should clear up any misunderstandings about their responsibilities to the residents, including disc golfers, of Lake County. Remember they are in office represent all of us not who they choose to.

"To Preserve a Dynamic and Unique System
of Natural and Cultural Resources,
and to Develop Innovative Educational,
Recreational, and Cultural Opportunities
of Regional Value, while Exercising
Environmental and Fiscal Responsibility."

I have a really hard time trying to understand how Disc Golf does not fit in this mission statement.

This Mission Statement and more information can be found in this document.
http://www.lcfpd.org/docs/media_pub_23850.pdf

Thanks Mike.

[Bruce Brakel]

For your problem Innova invented the Traveler and God invented the Y tree.  People were playing Frisbee golf at Adler before it had a course, and at Fink, Baycourt, Kensington, and variety of other parks before they had a course.  People playing frisbee golf or disc golf in those parks helped convince the park districts they ought to have a course. 

So long as you have some stomach for the fight, don't give up.  But its hard to accomplish anything with government by going in the front door. 

[Chainmeister]

For your problem Innova invented the Traveler and God invented the Y tree.  People were playing Frisbee golf at Adler before it had a course, and at Fink, Baycourt, Kensington, and variety of other parks before they had a course.  People playing frisbee golf or disc golf in those parks helped convince the park districts they ought to have a course. 

So long as you have some stomach for the fight, don't give up.  But its hard to accomplish anything with government by going in the front door. 

I think Bruce is on to something here.  Perhaps they need a demonstration of what they are missing.  This season is pretty much over. However, next Spring we should consider a rogue tournament at a desired site in Lake County with Travelers and Skillshots etc.  Set up a great layout course and use portable baskets.  Keep it down to about a half dozen foursomes of the highest rated players we can find..  Non-playing volunteers can caddy the baskets to the next location and make up a big gallery.   After the round (make it a one round "tournament") have a skills event for school kids.  The players who just participated can teach the rest of the attendees at a clinic.  Maybe something can be done to get as many kids as possible to watch the event. Video the event.  Invite the press.  Send out some press releases.  Have everybody look like they are playing in an A tier type event and show them what can be done.  See if a local news station would bite. Specifically invite the Commissioners to the event.  Use the Innova Traveler and try influencing them from the back door. 

[Sr.]

I really like what your saying about not giving up Mike! Bruce and David have some great ideas too. Some people may not agree, but maybe inviting some Cub Scout troops out on that self made course to teach them to play would be a strong influence in changing some minds of the big boys. But then again, maybe not. Just a thought.