When is the right time to move up?

[widiscgolf]

Hey I was goofing around tonight dying some discs.  Got in a stack of Star/CE/SB Rocs.   What do you guys think of this??



AND THIS ONE??

[Bruce Brakel]

Did you use that new dye that you can only see under black light?  It does not show up well with flash photography.

[widiscgolf]

Serious?  No I haven't.

[amdiscgolfer]

So how are Hamm's Discs relevent to the topic?

Ok, I only have this to say - Leave those people alone who are playing within the Rules of the ratings - If someone wants to move up - it is the persons choice.  If Brunner wants to step up - why should it matter to you Dan? (I only directed the question to you per our discussion last week)

If he feels his game is at the level it needs to be to compete with the pros that are on the tour there shouldn't be anyone bitchin!

People bitch cuz we dont have enough pro's on the tour - then when we get someone who has greatly improved his game since he started playing, we bash him and say you are moving up too early and if you want to donate your money to the top card you go right ahead!

HOW DOES THIS BENEFIT THE SPORT?

[CEValkyrie]

My concern is keeping players playing. I have not been around the scene too long. I however do try to get to know as many players as possible and check PDGA results for every event in the area so I feel I know the player base fairly well in the area. I track players and see who is making the transition and who is not & who is sticking around & who is not.

Going pro early can help gain some confidence if you play well but what happens if you start to bomb out? How many guys are going to keep playing the same # events they did before in advanced? Instead of retaining these players they are going to give up playing competitively. The pro divisions will stay the same size if this process continues.

I feel really good about what is going to happen in the next few years around here. I've seen Pat Blake make the transition to pro when he was rated around 960. Too bad he moved to the North Pole . Sean Butler waited until he was 965 and he's been successful. I hope I do the same as well after turning pro with a 971 rating. We all waited to develope our skills before entering the pro ranks.

I think there is a big wave of 930 to 960 rated guys that are developing right now. They are waiting and I think they'll have success in the future. No, they aren't pro right now but they will be in the next few years. I think patience is the key. These players will keep playing if they have fun and are competitive. How many guys have we seen get called up from the minor leagues way to early, have their confidence smashed, then never return to the majors again?

[CEValkyrie]

Here is one good example of Advanced players that either have or will be moving up in the next year or so. This was one tough !@# field.

http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5287#Advanced

[amdiscgolfer]

I guess my concern is:

If you have a person who in their mind feels that they are ready to move up - and then they would see a post such as this one.  Does it discourage them from making a move because they may now second guess their decision?

[Bruce Brakel]

I hope so.  I hate to see players move up early, get their asses kicked, and then decide to spend more time bowling.   

[amdiscgolfer]

Well, anyone who has seen my game won't have to worry about me stepping up to Pro, getting discouraged, then quiting - I get my ass kicked in INT!!!

[Dan Michler]

Hey Jeff, I'm pretty sure we had a private discussion where I pointed out some players that I thought shouldn't be moving up quite yet unless thats really what they think is most fun for them.

But THANKS for making it a public discussion on this forum.  I don't recall trying to make you or Mark look like a dick on the message board??  I don't recall bitching about it either, I could not care less what he does.  Maybe I'll post some of the things you said privately................

[Dan Michler]

i am now done with this whole conversation.  if i miraculously have a couple good rounds this year i'm not moving up so don't ask.  I suck at disc golf and probably will never improve past the point i am at right now, which is just a shi**y am who shoots 3 good rounds and 5 horrible rounds.  if i am still playing in 3 years, then i will be playing advanced.

[amdiscgolfer]

So let me get this straight?

If an mid to upper INT rated player sits in INT instead of stepping up he is a bagger!  if a Mid to upper ADV player sits in ADV he should stay where he is?

[MDR_3000]

I think AM2s should be forced up when their rating hits 916.  And upper advanced players should move up by feel, or their rating hits 970.

[Brunner]

I had a great time in my first Open tournaments, I was definately able to see the area of my game that needs to be improved and I can see the areas that I already am good at that will allow me to compete this year. 

Some advanced players will only be so good, a lot of players will peak at the 950-970 range and never be able to improve upon that.  I am too competitive to give up this great sport!   It takes a lot of dedication and hard work to consistently compete at a top level, and as long as players who are moving up accept that and want to be challenged and have the mindset required then thats great! 

[jack]

Thanks for the propers, Brett! I'd have included you and a few others on the list, but that's probably fodder for another thread. Anyway, here's my experience of movin' on up; I'm posting it here not because there's anything to boast about but in the hope that it might be helpful to others.

I experimented with Open in 2000 when I was 19 years old and had been playing for 4.5 years with the intention of playing 2000 Am Worlds. For the most part, I got my butt kicked! I played a few more Advanced events throughout the summer and felt I could have won most of them (If memory serves correctly, I didn't win any!). I was diasppointed with my finish at Worlds that year (20-something, too painful to even look at the results), but I figured that with one top 20 (1998) and one top 30 (2000) finish, it was time to go pro. There wasn't a big emphasis on ratings at that time, but I think I was rated around 954.

After some very solid drubbings and no time to practice (full-time student athlete), I wasn't sure going pro was the right decision. I tried to compete again in 2002 with some success (rating around 957). It was frustrating, however, to know I could play good golf in practice and stink it up on the last card in tournaments. So frustrating, in fact, that I essentially stopped playing until 2004.

In 2004, I saw a flyer for the IOS. I shot a good first tournament at Streamwood and cashed a few other times that summer and started to get some confidence. At that point (rating about 962), I decided to commit to becoming a good golfer and go to 2005 Pro Worlds. Last winter and throughout the summer, I started to do the little things that add up to better scores: putting practice; field sessions with midranges, drivers, and trick shots; playing tournaments to gain experience; attending leagues. I could go on, but here's a link to the single most helpful post on the PDGA Web site: http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Throwing%20Techniques&Number=276349&Searchpage=4&Main=272221&Search=true&#Post276349. I still missed cashing at most events, but I played well at my target event (Pro Workds), and that experience has driven me to practice more. You know the saying, "And the snowball starts, down the toilet..." (I doubt anyone will get that reference).

I have tried to stay away from advocating moving up or down. I think it's great when people have aspirations of success in an upper division, be it Open, Advanced, or Intermediate. I don't know that PDGA-enforced standards of moving up or down are the answer, as I feel this is a personal decision that everyone must make for him- or herself. In fact, I've found that I enjoy disc golf more when I don't worry about politics. That just leads to bitterness and anger and another thread. Thanks for bearing with me so far. It's only fair to leave the cyberspace audience with one nonretarded thought: Move up if you feel it will make you a better player, you can commit to serious practice, and you have the resolve to get through the hard times of not cashing. Or, unlike me, you could just be really really talented.

If anyone ever wants to go out and shoot, I'm at Mad Meadows most afternoons and I get really tired of playing with myself...I mean, by myself.

[amdiscgolfer]

Well said!

[Bruce Brakel]

So let me get this straight?

If an mid to upper INT rated player sits in INT instead of stepping up he is a bagger!  if a Mid to upper ADV player sits in ADV he should stay where he is?

If you are referring to my post, I thought I said if a junior doesn't move straight to Open he is bagging.  Maybe that was tongue in cheek.

[amdiscgolfer]

Bruce,

My comment was not directed to anyone particular.  More as a reference point to why some are very adement (sp) about getting INT players to move up to ADV - but when an advanced player decides that he wants to move up he is told not to.

[CEValkyrie]

You'll never hear people at events telling advanced players who are playing good to stay in advanced. All the players they beat will be yelling bagger to get them out of their division & all the pros will be yelling bagger chomping at the bit to get some more players in their division for some added cash.

Personally, I really don't care who stays in advanced and who makes the move. I just hope they are having fun and continue to play events. It's a tough decision and people have to deal with it.

In the winter of 04 I did some research into plaing pro. I wanted to see what would be competitive. I found 960 to 970 could be competitive in IL disc golf. In many states it is not competitive disc golf in the pro divisoins. To me being competitive would be having a shot to get into a cashing position.


Here is what I found.
Note: The ratings on many of these players have changed since. They were checked in Decmeber of both years.

2004 IL Tournies
179 pro players at 13 events
48 of those were rated 955 or below
5 of those 955 or below players cashed (none of it significant cash & many bottom to last cash)

2005 IL Tournies
191 pro players at 14 events.
65 of those were rated 955 or below
11 of those cashed (none of it significant cash & many bottom to last cash)

Take a look at many events. This holds true most of the time with some exceptions. Look at the Warm up.
2 days of play
32 pros
11 of those under 955
1 cashed

http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5633
http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5891

Tom Schodlter is definitley not a 937 player either. He's back to form this year.

[CEValkyrie]

I enjoyed this post this from the PDGA Board
http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=OtherPDGATopics&Number=607328&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

I agree with many of his opionions in paragraph number 2. People push players to play in the open division and what are the benefits of doing so? You can shoot great golf and walk away barely making your money back.

I disagree with some of his statements in paragraph number 3. It's hard finiding people just to hand out $ to sponsor events.


This year has been a learning experience for me and i'm forming my opinions from this. It's tough to shell out $1,000+ in entry fees and hope to win it back. When you go home and tell your wife you won $80 and she asks what was the entry fee? how much was lunch? & gas is expenise! It's hard to justify. This is why I believe the open division is a black hole. Many enter each year yet it never grows because this black hole eats them up and they quit playing.