When is the right time to move up?

[Bruce Brakel]

wow, brett - that is messed up. Can I hope to get payouts to 100% of the Intermediate field at IOS events next year?

I'd like to have some of the kool aid that TD was drinking...

We already do payouts to 100% of the field for amateur divisions.  We just expedite the payout process by handling a part of it at registration and calling it a player pack. 

[CEValkyrie]

wow, brett - that is messed up. Can I hope to get payouts to 100% of the Intermediate field at IOS events next year?

I'd like to have some of the kool aid that TD was drinking...

We already do payouts to 100% of the field for amateur divisions.  We just expedite the payout process by handling a part of it at registration and calling it a player pack. 

Mirth is referring to my ealier post of a tournament in which all 9 women that competed in FPO cashed.

http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5530

Seriously. Where are these tournaments & why ate they adding this much $ to microdivsions? I'd have signed up for Pro a long time ago. 

[Mike S]

The bottom payout in that FPO division was shooting 860-870 rounds!!!  Maybe I should go pro.

[DiscGolfSchodt]

Just another reason disc golf will not grow and the pro fields will not get bigger.

Why are sponsorships that are hard to find being added to microdivisions? Disc golf will never grow at the pro level if this continues. This is like starting the WNBA before the NBA.

10. Cale Leivaska- 36 Events - $13,277
1.   Des Reading- 23 Events- $12,430
11. Chris Sprague- 34 Events- $12,215
263. Brett Comincioli-18 Events- $1,074 Missing IL STS & Channahon.

There were 1,740 cash winners in MPO
There were 133 cash winners in FPO
stats provided by DGW on page 12.

WOW!! Almost makes me want to get de-wanged

[Tom McManus]

Just another reason disc golf will not grow and the pro fields will not get bigger.

Why are sponsorships that are hard to find being added to microdivisions? Disc golf will never grow at the pro level if this continues. This is like starting the WNBA before the NBA.

10. Cale Leivaska- 36 Events - $13,277
1.   Des Reading- 23 Events- $12,430
11. Chris Sprague- 34 Events- $12,215
263. Brett Comincioli-18 Events- $1,074 Missing IL STS & Channahon.

There were 1,740 cash winners in MPO
There were 133 cash winners in FPO
stats provided by DGW on page 12.

WOW!! Almost makes me want to get de-wanged

You may want to capitalize the ALMOST.

[Jon Brakel]

There are two theories that I know of that are the reasoning behind sponsoring micro divisions. I do not support either one as a TD but thought I'd explain. The first is the thinking that sponsorship will build a division to critical mass whereby it won't need artificial support anymore. For example, if you were to get a large turn out of women at all disc golf events then you will continue to get the turn out. It's the sponsorship that some TDs think is needed to reach the critical mass point. The other is the "Everyone should come out and play" attitude that somehow turns to "I need to get everyone out to play". These TDs see that only a few women are coming to "their" events and they want to attract more because they think they're missing something or not doing enough of something. They just don't realize that there aren't that many disc golf tournament playing women. And ALL of the men that play disc golf are responsible for that! 

Having said that I do have to say that I disagree with Brett about this sponsorship holding back disc golf. It's such a small amount of money that no matter what you'd do with it it wouldn't change how fast disc golf is growing.

[pickax]

The other reason that divisions like FPO and Masters are sponsored is to expand the population base demographically. The money for large PDGA purses is going to come from advertisers. Advertisers want a good demographic base when paying for eyeballs. Ideally they want the eyeballs that a) have cash to spend and b) control where it goes. What demographics are those? You got it, those with money tend to be older and those that control it tend to be the women. 

[Mukey]

Having said that I do have to say that I disagree with Brett about this sponsorship holding back disc golf. It's such a small amount of money that no matter what you'd do with it it wouldn't change how fast disc golf is growing.

In my mind it isn't the $ as much as the effort put into the events. I'd much rather have the Peoria Open than the USWDGC. As Brett said, WNBA before NBA?

[Bruce Brakel]

The only way we could grow the sport any faster would be to abolish pro divisions altogether, and spend the money we'd save buying courses and temporary baskets for middle schools.  The only sport I know of that intentionally set out to grow the sport to create a demographic that would support a pro league on TV is USA soccer.  They quit throwing money at their pro league in the mid 80s and spent ten years throwing money at kids' soccer.  They were successful.  They've just turned the corner from producing their own tv shows and buying time on ESPN to selling the rights to ESPN and taking home an eight figure paycheck. 

But disc golf is growing at 15% per year and already has plenty of growing pains.  It does not need to grow any faster. 

[Chainmeister]

I gotta think that any sponsorship is good.  More money is more money.  Yeah! However, directed sponsorships are sort of like Ladies Night at the old bar or bowling alley.  sponsors and bar owners (or TD's) do this for two completely opposite reasons.  One politically correct and one , well, not so PC
1. quasi title nine- we feel we ought to do something to make up for all the bad things we have done to women over the years and give them an opportunity to play, even if it means spreading money unevenly. Well meaning pandering.

2. hey baby you wanna...- eye candy at the bar brings in more guys who are allegedly spending money.  I guess the same goes for disc golf.  Certainly, if a hypothetical sports network wanted to show some disc golf action they could show Barry and Ken etc making incredible shots.  Or they could show Angela, who is a little better looking than Barry and Ken, making some pretty darn good shots.  Hey, which one would draw a bigger audience? less well meaning pandering.  

If I recall, didn't a past Widdershins offer females to play for free?  I will assume that we were either using model 1 above or model 3 below...


3. Honey, if I get to play, you can play for free - give a break to wives, girlfriends, daughters, moms etc so we don't feel so guilty spending so much time away from the nest throwing plastic circles.

That being said, I understand how discouraging it has to be for middle of the road pros, who are way better than most of us mortals (ok sub mortals in my case) and wind up losing money in this game.  That's why I see touring pros as the only ones who should do it.  I think everybody else should play a ratings based upper Am division and continue to cache plastic they don't need.  Then let any player who either does well at a qualifying tournament or has a high enough rating, enter a handful of touring events to test their mettle. It beats the discouragement. The only other way to consider non-touring pros as pros would be to compare them to club pros with regular golf.  Good enough to compete with the big boys once in a while but not banging their heads against the wall week in and week out.  Of course, Brett, I think you are better off than those guys.  You are not giving lessons to some disinterested kid or hacker club member.  You get to play way more than those guys get to play.

[mirth]

My motive for the Widdershins a couple years ago was none of the categories. I simply wanted to provide an opportunity for women and girls who may play, but never have played in a tournament, to see what they thought of competitive play. That, and to see how they liked playing in 60MPH wind gusts!

[CEValkyrie]

Small amounts of $, yes. However, add that up for 700+ events across the country and that's quite a bit.  I would like to know how much money a year is being added to FPO & MPM. I'm sure you could run another USDGC or maybe 2.

If you don't have a product to sell and that product being professional disc golf, it will never happen. When the sports "Michael Jordan" of disc golf has to cut back on events there is a problem. It's sad to see top players with talent struggle to make ends meet when they are just giving away money to microdivsions.

Bruce, you theory on abolishing pro divisions is just plain ridiculous. Saving money by not having a pro divisions?

[stpitner]

Ok, not to bash the accomplishments of the ladies at any playing level, but have you noticed how EVERY sport goes completely NUTS when there is a woman that does well?  First they tried looks before ability, and you wound up with Anna Kournakova.  Now she has been replaced by Maria Sharapova because Sharapova can play.  Look at Michelle Wie or Annika Sorenstam in golf.  Look at Danica Patrick in IRL racing (after Sarah Fisher pretty much flopped).

The disgusting thing?  They start to flaunt the looks of the women.  Is that right?  Is that what attracts people to the sport?  I'm afraid that it does somewhat, but it shouldn't.  It's that mechanic that all these sports and sports shows try to focus on to get more males to tune in.  You throw more money at the women's division to get more women to show up and participate and hope that one of them that plays well looks good.  It's a disgusting mindset.

I'm not going after you mirth - I want to clarify that now.  I also can't go after the tournament that was posted because I can't get inside the head of the TD to know what they were thinking.  Would I throw money at the women's division?  Yes.  It would be a proportional amount of what I throw at the men's division.  That's the way it should be.

I thoroughly enjoyed the clinic that I ran for 2nd-5th graders and then the tournament for middle schoolers.  I got to see 180 kids at those 2 events combined go out there and have FUN.  I love the idea of promoting the sport to kids.  Both sides of the spectrum need to be supported - the kids and the pros.  If you were into any particular professional sport you probably had a childhood favorite team and/or player.  Without the pros to look up to and set the example, a lot of the time the kids don't know how to respect the sport when they start to grow older.

I personally think this sport is less than 10 years away from finding some bigger named sponsors to start having bigger payouts at the national tournaments.  That's going to be the stuff that starts to attract the cameras (why is professional domino's on ESPN? the prize money involved!)

Respect the sport, teach the sport, support the sport, and let it continue to grow.

[mirth]

its all good scott. the widdershins in 2005 had a donated 1st place trophy and donated CTPs from Gateway. The only real money that went into having the 10 or so gals play free (other women did play but IIRC kelsey and maybe one or two others played mens rec) was the cost of their players' packs.

[Jon Brakel]

Bruce's argument is academic. However, academically speaking disc golf doesn't have "pros" and doesn't have a pro division. Even if you add all the money added to the micro divisions disc golf wouldn't have any pros. I wouldn't consider anyone playing a sport a "pro" until they can make more money traveling and playing their sport than they could make sitting behind a monitor all day. They might be very good, but they aren't a professional.

I don't see a path to a real pro division unless or until our sport isn't free. It is why we keep having growing pains. It is why some people don't want the sport in their parks. We'll have real pros once many companies are making money from our sport. I don't think we'll reach that critical mass playing par 3 golf in free parks.

If disc golf makes it to a big pro level sport it isn't going to look so much like it did in the 1970's. It will be like comparing present day NFL to football before the forward pass. You gotta get money to make money...and you gotta make a lot of money to support a professional division.

[mirth]

oh - and bruce's pro soccer analogy makes sense to me. i had never heard of soccer before my mom signed me up for KASL soccer in the 80s. had I stuck with it I'm sure I would have been a pro soccer fan when I was in high school.

yeah, brett, I can understand how not having a pro cash payout division could save the organization money in the long term. after having run tournaments you should be able to see that pretty easily too...

I don't think anybody's saying that's the cure for the pdga, big $ sponsorship money, and helping touring pros make a living.

[Jon Brakel]

I personally think this sport is less than 10 years away from finding some bigger named sponsors to start having bigger payouts at the national tournaments.  That's going to be the stuff that starts to attract the cameras (why is professional domino's on ESPN? the prize money involved!)

I might think you are right, but I've also heard that for almost 30 years. Professional Domino's isn't on ESPN because of the prize money. It's on because someone is paying for the commercials.

[Bruce Brakel]

Actually, professional dominoes, Scrabble and other "What-the?" events like that are on ESPN because they are paying ESPN for the air time.  This is the TVland equivalent of vanity publishing.  This is how Disc Golf TV got on TV a few years ago.  It is how infomercials get on TV.  It is the same thing. 

[Tom McManus]

Bruce's argument is academic. However, academically speaking disc golf doesn't have "pros" and doesn't have a pro division. Even if you add all the money added to the micro divisions disc golf wouldn't have any pros. I wouldn't consider anyone playing a sport a "pro" until they can make more money traveling and playing their sport than they could make sitting behind a monitor all day. They might be very good, but they aren't a professional.

I don't see a path to a real pro division unless or until our sport isn't free. It is why we keep having growing pains. It is why some people don't want the sport in their parks. We'll have real pros once many companies are making money from our sport. I don't think we'll reach that critical mass playing par 3 golf in free parks.

If disc golf makes it to a big pro level sport it isn't going to look so much like it did in the 1970's. It will be like comparing present day NFL to football before the forward pass. You gotta get money to make money...and you gotta make a lot of money to support a professional division.

Just for arguments sake:
Your comments regarding professional don't hold up, are NFL referees professional?  I would say that most if not all of them make more at their day jobs than moonlighting on the weekends.  Are they any less professional than the umpires for other sports, who are full time?

Free play has seemed to work pretty well for baseball, football, tennis, basketball, and hockey. Think those sports would do better if we made all park systems pay to play? One doesn't have anything to do with the other. There are companies that make money from our sport, Innova, Discraft, DGA, Gateway, the makers of quadshocks, and Revolution to name a few.  I believe the more free courses that are available, the more that the sport will grow.  It is a perception issue regarding the type of people that throw a Frisbee that goes back to the 70s, among many other issues, which impedes the growth of disc golf.  Unfortunately there are some people out there today which still believe the perception is the reality.

More courses, more discs and baskets sold.  Companies are starting to market shoes and clothes specifically to the disc golf crowd. More players, more money, limiting the number of players will decrease the overall interest and hurt the sport not help the sport. 

Finally, how can you compare disc golf to football? Wouldn't a disc golf to golf comparison be more reasonable?  How much has the actual game of golf changed?  You hit a round ball into a hole with a specially made stick.  The technology has changed but the basic tenets of the game have remained the same.

[Jon Brakel]

Good counterpoints. I don't advocate NOT getting more free courses. I love free courses. But there's only so much land and everyone wants a say in how it gets used. I still don't think that par 3 golf will be the venue where professionals will play for professional purses.

Besides professional part-time refs there are part-time professional ball golfers. But they are playing a pro sport in a pro division for a pro purse. The full-time ball golfers all make more money than a guy sitting behind a monitor all day.

The same types of perceptions exist with snow boarding and skate boarding. Those perceptions have not kept those sports from having real pros making real money.

I wasn't comparing the technology of the sport of disc golf to football. I think the courses are going to change...if we're going to see big time pros anytime. But I don't think the little courses will go away, we'll still have our little neighborhood courses to play on.