When is the right time to move up?

[CEValkyrie]

I started this thread because we will always continue to see posts about bagging and questions about what divisions to play in. Here is some recent discussion.
http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=518240&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=2&vc=1


From my experience i'm glad I waited until I was ready to play pro. I still do not think i'm pro calibur nor is 85% of the players playing pro across the country. From playing Advanced last year I was able to experience many pressure situations of being on the lead card, playing with a lead, trying to catch someone ahead of me, and many others. That would have not been the case at many events had I played pro all year.

There is no right or wrong time. It's all opinion.

My opinion is i'd rather see players playing advanced and having fun competing and gaining confidence then moving quickly into the pro ranks, not having fun, then possibly giving up the game. You either have to be really naturally talented to become really good at disc golf or you need to get out and play a ton of disc golf. A lot of those guys just don't play a lot of disc golf.

Be patient Sleepy. There are more pros coming. It may be this year & it may be next year. This area seems to be catching up rapidly like you stated in your post of baggers that are playing the Warm-Up

[CEValkyrie]

Posted by Bruce Brakel & moved here.

Pro bitching, as seen on pdga.com:
Quote
I am not ANTI-AM golfer but I am ANTI-AM golfer selling the discs they won in the parking lot or on eBay making more money than I do on the golf course when I beat his brains in by 30 strokes.

My response:


Quote
That am is making more than you because he is working harder than you. If you want to make more money selling discs in the parking lot, I'll set you up! Pros make excellent salesmen.

If there are any pros similarly envious of the advanced players who get to play for lucrative piles of frisbees, at any IOS I would be happy to increase your payout by 80% if you will take a pile of frisbees instead of a wad of cash. That's right. If you win $200 in Open and you'd rather have 360 brass, we can do that for you.

I really think that guy does not get it.  But maybe its me.  Any pro who thinks 180% in brass works better for him than cash is welcome to take that option.  For pros who run tournaments and run e-bay stores, maybe that is actually a deal that works for them. 

[Dan Michler]

the bottom line here is that I suck.  for as long as i suck, i refuse to turn pro and throw away money while making a fool of myself.  other players at my skill level or even well below (like 932 or 920) may feel that they do not suck and can compete in pro.  good luck!

also, i've talked about this discussion many times, but i'll say it again.

950 rated amateur does NOT equal 970 when u turn pro.  thats just stupid, it doesn't work like that.

[discmonkey]

I don't have even close to enough experience in this sport to determine or make statements as to who should be "pro" or not.  I do in other areas though.  I used to be a hard core 9 ball player.  I see a lot of parallells with this sport.  It seems that as soon as someone can regularly beat the local comp they think they qualify as pro.  In pool, these people got stomped at tournaments.  There is a certain level the "pro" players of any sport have achieved.  It is made up of many intangeables, but its end result is someone who thinks, acts, and plays at an entirely different level than most even thought existed.  When I watch the MSDGC, USDGC, etc., Climo, Schultz, Todd, Rico, etc. are on such a different level than everyone else.  If you can't hang with these guys on a regular basis, then you probably don't really qualify as a "pro".  By the same token, if you can't hang with that level of play, then you are not a sandbagger by playing a lower level.  It is more likely the people in that lower level are also playing out of their skill level and should be playing a lower division too.  Just because you get beat, the guy who beat you wasn't necesarily sandbagging.  Best advice I've been given is to just have fun and stop worrying about what other payers will be doing.

[CEValkyrie]

Tim,
    I'd have to agree with you on the local thing. We can even take it to the next level. Let's take IL for example. In my opinion there are only 4-5 potential touring pros in this state right now. Other than that we could have a Pro2 Division for everyone else . Sorry if I missed anyone.

Steve Forneris-1000 rated- played only 3 events in 2005
Rod Fritz-Masters-996 rated- cashed at every event except 1 last year. No doubt he could be touring with the big boyz of Masters
Kris Hutter-Open-996 rated- not current so I couldn't look at stats.
Jason McKinney-992 rated- not current but I believe he cashed at 04 Worlds. He did not play many events in 05.
John Knudson-Open-984 rating- cashed at 05 Pro Worlds

[Bruce Brakel]

All of those guys would have to take it up a notch or find an angle if they wanted to quit their job and hit the road. 

In Michigan we have four or five 1000ish rated pro masters now.  At a recent tournament Schack, Branch, Raley and Gill all played pro master.  That's going to do more to keep good am masters playing for prizes than the amount of prizes at stake. 

I think at every level of competition you should move up when the PDGA moves you up, or when it works for you.  I moved up to advanced back when moving from intermediate to advanced was a one-way door, in order to play Worlds in advanced master back when you had to have advanced master points to get an advanced master invitation.  The year after my back injury they made the rule that amateurs could freely move between divisions subject to the age and ratings restrictions.  I went right back to intermediate and had a lot of fun.  I had so much fun I improved my rating to advanced.

I think having competitive fun is the key to getting better, especially if you never practice!

[Dan Michler]

Tim,
I'd have to agree with you on the local thing. We can even take it to the next level. Let's take IL for example. In my opinion there are only 4-5 potential touring pros in this state right now. Other than that we could have a Pro2 Division for everyone else . Sorry if I missed anyone.

Steve Forneris-1000 rated- played only 3 events in 2005
Rod Fritz-Masters-996 rated- cashed at every event except 1 last year. No doubt he could be touring with the big boyz of Masters
Kris Hutter-Open-996 rated- not current so I couldn't look at stats.
Jason McKinney-992 rated- not current but I believe he cashed at 04 Worlds. He did not play many events in 05.
John Knudson-Open-984 rating- cashed at 05 Pro Worlds

touring pro?  thaaaats a stretch   

[ninjaboy076]

I am a new player and haven't played in a tournament yet.  I am 16 and would like to play in junior because i think i would have a shot at maybe winning a tournament or two bu at the same time there isn't much competition in junior.  any suggestions on which division to play in?

[mirth]

play junior for a while, see how your scores relate to the folks playing rec. If you're competitive in rec then by all means move up to rec....

[badger1190]

i played my first tournament as a junior last year and although it was fun its not really that competive, if you can do decently in rec then id deffinetly suggest moving up if you are looking for bigger fields and more competitive golf. 

[Dan Michler]

just play whatever division makes u feel like your a bad ass.  thats why i decided i'm going pro now   

[Bruce Brakel]

I am a new player and haven't played in a tournament yet.  I am 16 and would like to play in junior because i think i would have a shot at maybe winning a tournament or two bu at the same time there isn't much competition in junior.  any suggestions on which division to play in?

Quit bagging and play open pro.  

Mirth's advice is good.  If you are not a PDGA member, playing junior is your most economical option at any IOS.  

[Cannon Boy]

Wow,  I guess if you win one advanced tourney and you do not play pro after that you are a bagger.  I kinda wanted to wait for after AM Nats and AM Worlds so I guess I am a bagger till then.  Oh and I want to try that Mid Nats in Highbridge.

[Bruce Brakel]

Anyone who is breathing and is not playing Open is bagging.     I've been bagging 14 years! 

[maa4208]

Well, I played Junior last year in all of the tournaments that I played. I won most, only because I was the only one in my division or that I had a good day.  For this season, I'm moving up and playing Rec. Last year, I played in 8 events and I got 35 points. Not enough for an invite to Worlds, but my dad got one, so I put my name on the waitlist. Hopefully, I will go too! Thats why I'm playing Rec. this year. If I played it last year, I would of had enough points to get an invite.....

[MDR_3000]

When is the right time to move up?  Easy, when you feel you can be some what competitive in the next division.  You shouldn't go by your rating.  I'm only rated 944 right now, but I am playing open.  Why? because I KNOW I don't shoot 940 golf (and not like Steve Mills, where he thinks he's a 970 rated player).  I just have 800 rated rounds that equal out my 990+ rounds!

[Dan Michler]

Mike, I believe that you feel you can be competitive in open, but so far you haven't really been very competitive in open.  Until you start consistently finishing atleast top half, i think you would have been better off staying in advanced.

[MDR_3000]

Fair enough, but most of my open tournaments last year I was headcasing and just didn't care.  I've cashed in one of two tournaments this year, hopefully the second will be tomorrow.  I couldn't stay in advanced, it wasn't fun for me after a while.  It seemed I didn't have to play well to do well (if that makes any sense)

[Dan Michler]

I couldn't stay in advanced, it wasn't fun for me after a while. It seemed I didn't have to play well to do well (if that makes any sense)

Not trying to pick on you Mike, you are an excellent player and should be a good pro someday.

I agree with you on not having to play well sometimes in advanced to do well.  HOWEVER, that is only because alot of the good advanced players are playing pro.  If we all stayed where we should be, then you would have to play well to do well in advanced.  But we all have to do whatever makes the game fun, so u made the right decision then.  If I get bored playing advanced, then I might make the same decision, but for now I am still having ALOT of fun!!   

[Brunner]

I just figured I would post pretty much what I posted on the pdga boards.

Moving up based on rating alone I dont think is wise. I personally desided to make a jump because I know I am playing at a much higher level than I was all of last year. I should say a much more consistent level.

The difference between top AMS and Pros is consistency. Player ratings lag behind a players actual skill, its inevitable the way the system works. My 932 is meaningless to me since I have averaged over 955 since July and I would consider my play now to be more consistent than that.

Regardless if you think you should make the move or not, if you do make the move you cant go into it wanting to at least be a bottom cash pro. Regardless of your skill, rating, the field you have to go into the tournament expecting to perform and expecting to win. Sometimes its the mental hurdle of not "being able to compete" at the next level that keeps a lot of top Ams for trying the jump.

I think the one gain for top ams that stay in advanced is that they can learn how to win, learn how to hold a lead, learn how to come from behind to win and that is all valuable experience. Competition in the advanced and open fields in wisconsin has always been tight amongst the fields, for the advanced almost anyone can win anytime and that was clear at a lot of wisconsin tour events last year.

This sport needs more top Ams to move up and up their game more so the Open division can grow and grow. In the course of the next few years the Open field in my opinion will grow tighter and tighter with more players hopefully approaching 1000 ratings. I am glad I live in Wisconsin, and I am thankful that there are just so many great players that I have been able to play with/see play that have helped my game these past few years.

I also wanted to add that I am not the type of person to get discouraged easily and some people do and if they dont see the "success" they want when making the move it might be second guessed.  If you make the decision you have to be sure about it.  I am sure that this feels right for me.  If everything starts falling in place right away great, if not I have the passion and the competitive drive in this sport to push myself to that next level whatever it takes.  The first few tournaments of the year for me have come to point out my weaknesses and help me pinpoint the areas that I need to improve on for the rest of the year. 

To me, if someone would call me a sandbagger I would take it more of a complement in this sport.  I think that we should leave the moving up to the player and the players shouldnt have any added pressure besides maybe some kind of automatic jump to Pro through the PDGA or something to that sort (qualifying or something).  Disc Golf is above all about having fun, lets enjoy ourselves no matter which paths we decide to take.  Everyone has their own paths and there are many paths that lead to the same degree of SUCCESS.