When is the right time to move up?

[Tom McManus]

I enjoyed this post this from the PDGA Board
http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=OtherPDGATopics&Number=607328&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

I agree with many of his opionions in paragraph number 2. People push players to play in the open division and what are the benefits of doing so? You can shoot great golf and walk away barely making your money back.

I disagree with some of his statements in paragraph number 3. It's hard finiding people just to hand out $ to sponsor events.


This year has been a learning experience for me and i'm forming my opinions from this. It's tough to shell out $1,000+ in entry fees and hope to win it back. When you go home and tell your wife you won $80 and she asks what was the entry fee? how much was lunch? & gas is expenise! It's hard to justify. This is why I believe the open division is a black hole. Many enter each year yet it never grows because this black hole eats them up and they quit playing.

There are a number of issues here regarding $ and disc golf.  I can understand why some pros get upset at not making any money when there are AM players who score much lower and walk away with prizes. I don't know enough about the tournament process to know if all AM money goes to AMs and all Pro money goes to Pros. I am surprised at how hard many TDs work at raising sponsorship $ which they put back into prize funds.  Many of them put their hard earned cash on the line hoping to make it back on plastic.

I don't know what the TDs make on a tourney, and really it doesn't make a difference to me.  They are providing a service for me at what seems to be a fair price most of the time.  Some much more fair than others, and if I felt it's not fair I let the TD know.

I am certain that everyone has reasons for playing disc golf, like they have reasons playing any sport.  I  am not aware of any other sport that is organized to the extent that disc golf is, where you can go out on almost any weekend of the year, and if you are willing to drive far enough, have an opportunity to make money.  You can join a country club, or find some buddies to play ball golf for some cash, but rarely will you find tournaments with the prize money that disc golf offers on a consistent basis.

As far as gas and lunch, you have to eat no matter what you are doing, and depending on the activity, be it skiing, basketball, whatever, you typically get in the car to do it.  Unless you're David B., then you get on your two-wheeler.  But I don't think he is making any $ riding his bike.

It seems to me, if you are in it for the money, anything above covering your entry fee is a bonus, unless you are one of the top players who gets sponsored.  There isn't anyone out there paying admission to watch us, so everything that we win or lose is coming from or going to the guys that we are playing with.

On the other hand if you are trying to be the best player that you can be, and you move up to the next division only to get your brains beat in, it would be very disheartening.

[Bruce Brakel]

I think given where the sport is right now, you have to play the game for fun and competition, and play in whatever divisions at whatever events maximize those values.  If you are tired of the pro grind, go am.  If you are tired of the tournament thing, play leagues.  If you are tired of the game itself, try another game. 

Pursue happiness, but not with lethal weapons.  That is the key. 

[Mukey]

Pursue happiness, but not with lethal weapons.  That is the key. 

Well said Bruce.

[CEValkyrie]

That is the problem with the system and why you see so many pros leaving the game and why the pro division does not grow. There is no incentive to move up and stay. As an amateur looking up the Pro division looks like a rainbow. Once you get in it you see it's a black hole.

I disagree with you Bruce on the going Am thing. That doesn't work. It's more miserable hearing people whine and complain about what division you are playing in.

I can understand the $ perspective. You can say let's play and have fun. Unless you have $50 to $100 to flush down the toilet every weekend it's tough to understand until you've been there. I've actually had a decent year and have not lost any money. I do know understand why I don't see many guys as repeat visitiors in the pro division. This process will continue unless something changes.

[DougEDawg]

One suggestion might be to have another am tier that has a rating of around 960 or higher.  Another idea would be to split pro into two groups.....making a rating requirement for a lower pro division, this time maybe 975ish.  I'm sure similar ideas have been mentioned before.

[stpitner]

[on]soapbox[/on]

For pros I think the bottom line comes down to money.  I completely understand why the pros would not want to go just go a tournament and try to play for the entry fees.  It's more like gambling on how well you are going to throw instead of being rewarded for how well you threw.  That points the finger at lack of sponsorship.  Players will show up if there's a lot of money to be given away by sponsorship.  That's just common sense.  Right now the pros that you continually see are the ones that play for the love of the game.  They deserve to be rewarded.  Am I saying that the pros that don't show up don't love the game?  No, but the more realistic answer is that they can't afford it in case they do have a bad day.

So you need sponsors... not an easy task to pick them up.  What's in it for the sponsor?  Sure their name gets mentioned, but what happens after that?  Are you going to go home and completely forget about that sponsor?  Probably.  What do you need to do?  Support the sponsor.  Make them WANT to come back.  Keep the professional level of the tournament, make the sponsor feel like their money is going to something worthwhile that can turn into sales not only that day, but the next day and the day after that and so on.

Unfortunately right now the AM's have it really nice comparitively speaking.  It's pretty cheap to get in, the player pack is more than enough to cover your expenses to the tournament, and if you win stuff you get discs that you can sell and make even more cash.  If you went trophy only you won't receive additional discs, but what you received in your player pack is enough to make back your entry fee.  Pro's don't get a player pack, so there HAS to be something in addition to their entry fees that makes it worthwhile to come out and play.

Getting the initial sponsors can be tough, but it's especially tough to get them to stay as a sponsor.  So if you see a sponsor, make sure to support them!

One other thing that would help - go out and be a fan.  Make a pro feel like the top level player that they are by cheering them on.  We know that you want to play too, but if it's not your day of the tournament, get out there and watch.  Have fun, buy stuff.  The bigger the crowd, the more you'll draw in sponsors.

[off]soapbox[/off]

[CEValkyrie]

Here is another great example of why the system is so phooked up? http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5530

What is the % of pro women in disc golf? How can every women cash at an event? The 1st place winner of FPO won the same as 3rd in MPO. She beat 8 players. That same MPO beat 33 players.

Check Des's stats. She's made some good $ this year fon consistently beating 5 to 10 women. She would make the top 10 in MPO for $ won this year.

[Chainmeister]

Thinking outside the [soap]box...what about this: eliminate all pro classifications other than A tiers and touring events. Or just plain eliminate all pro classifications period.  Allow players who play pro at those events to play advanced or superadvanced at  other tournaments. Add a so-called super advanced division similar to what Doug suggested at 975 or so.  I agree that playing pro seems to be a sucker bet for anybody who isn't close to 1000.  Brett had at one point said that he would wait until he got there but jumped the gun just before he went to USDGC in 2005.  He has barely kept his head above water and is doing better than most pros.  I don't understand why guys (or gals) in the 930-940 range even bother.  Make money on doubles or side bet games.  This way so-called pros can return to being what they really are- very good disc players.  For those of you under 1000 every time somebody calls you a bagger just tell them to fund your entry fees or @#$& off.

[mirth]

wow, brett - that is messed up. Can I hope to get payouts to 100% of the Intermediate field at IOS events next year?

I'd like to have some of the kool aid that TD was drinking...

[stpitner]

hmm, one thing that I've seen that sometimes helps towards increased interest in the pro purse is getting customized discs done EARLY, and then selling them in advance as a fundraiser type of thing (eg. CFR discs) that will take the proceeds and help add money to the pro purse.  Once again that requires fan support, but if you really want to see this sport take off, this is the type of stuff that needs to be done!

That's intriguing how the women's and men's payouts happened.  Maybe they had specific men/women's purse sizes at the beginning instead of having one overall purse then taking 20% of it to pay out the womens (9 out of the 45 pro players were women) and the remaining 80% to pay out the mens.  Sure we want more women players, but you also need to reward the big group of guys that came out to play as well.  The more women that show up the larger the percentage they get.

[Mukey]

After reading this today & looking at the link Brett just posted, I'd say something has to be done.

I like Doug's idea of another divison. I don't think the X-tier tourneys are doing that well, or I'd suggest that as a solution. Having players who are rated closer to eachother play eachother.

After reading a bunch of Peoria people rant & rave about the women getting all the attention and seeing that every woman pro cashes, I agree that something there is screwy. If everyone gets $, why are there not more women playing?

[CEValkyrie]

Here is another.
http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5462#Open%20Women


Do an advanced search for Pro NT's and check out what the top women are making compared to the top men.

Check the names of the MPO players that are at all these NT events. I have no idea how they are able to get by week to week. It would be nice to see the sport be able to support the top players in the World so we can get this game on TV. It would nice to see everyone have to make a cut and earn their way into these events. Instead, smucks like myself can pay $100 to $150 and try to pretend to be pro.

Top 10
Name PDGA# Events State Country Points Cash Rating
Barry Schultz   6840  21   WI   USA   7380  $ 22003 1038
David Feldberg   12626  22   OR   USA   6637  $ 19116 1036
Ken Climo   4297  13   FL   USA   5440  $ 17977 1043
Brad Hammock   5912  22   GA   USA   3397  $ 16513 1024
Steve Rico   4666  18   CA   USA   5915  $ 15017 1032
Avery Jenkins   7495  17   OR   USA   5287  $ 14780 1029
Joshua Anthon   17946  17   CA   USA   6582  $ 12225 1027
Nathan Doss   11794  14   CA   USA   4637  $ 12046 1031
Cale Leiviska   24341  31   MN   USA   6097  $ 10927 1015
Chris Sprague   16425  27   OR   USA   7717  $ 10517 1014

[Bruce Brakel]

Chuck Kennedy has been working on getting the Board to adopt an Expert Amateur division for amateurs over 955.  I think it would be good for the game.  It would take away any incentive to stay amateur for heaps of prizes, because the division would be small.  It would give players who kind of stall out at 960 or 970 a reason to keep playing tournaments.  It would give those players somewhere to compete while they get ready for Worlds.  It has none of the undesirable effects of a cash-paid Pro 2 division.  

If I were a frustrated pro, I'd take my am status back and see what Chuck gets done with MA0.  

But there's also the Haggadone option.  This guy is a pro master with a 1002 rating and time on his hands.  You'd think he'd be at a B-tier every weekend.  He has only played like 8 tournaments this year.  Kirk does not really enjoy tournaments.  He likes to play casual rounds with his boy or with some friends.  He likes to hang out at the course and give lessons.  He's just doing what he likes to do.  

He must be some kind of boddhisatva on his last trip on earth!  

[Bruce Brakel]

Sometimes, especially in Texas for some reason, [and Oklahoma is a Texas suburb!] the TD gets sponsorship earmarked for the women.  So he does his A-tier 125% for all divisions [or whatever it is this year] and then adds the earmarked women's sponsorship on top of that. 

But sometimes a TD will add disproportionately to the women's payout for no reason that makes anymore sense than adding disproportionately to anyone else's payout. 

[Jon Brakel]

Brett, I agree those payouts are completely nuts. My preference would be to see added cash added to MPO and FPO divisions proportionally. So, if you have a sponsor adding $1000 to the pro payout and you have 40 pro men and 7 pro women then you'd add about $150 to the pro women's purse and $850 to the pro men's purse (or do you say "man bag"?). My preference is to not add cash to age protected pro divisions at this time.

On the am side, when I talk to potential sponsors, I like to see added stuff rather than increased payout. Like the flight life discs at IOS #2 or the t-shirts added to the player pack. Free lunch would be a great sponsored item also.

There's so little added money in this sport that I'm not sure what affect it does or could potentially have on getting the sport on TV. I'm not sure how that ties into the added cash equation. I think once the sport has enough fans it will be on TV. Having said that though, if Brett (or anyone else for that matter) has any ideas on what we can do to help this problem, I'm all for being part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

[Bruce Brakel]

Payouts have nothing to do with getting on TV.  There is no payout for college football or basketball.

Getting on TV has everything to do with someone's ability to sell the concept to a producer, and his ability to sell the concept to the people who advertise on his shows. 

You don't even need a fan base.  There was no fan base for Who Wants To Be a Millionaire or "Open the Box," whatever that show is called.  Most TV shows start with no fan base.  If the show is interesting, boom, fan base.

I think if you knew a producer of reality based TV you could pitch a show about ten guys, a Winnebago, two tents and the PDGA M/A/NT.  It would be a great game show.  Every week if you don't cash they can kick you off the bus.  The winner could keep the Winnebago! 

[CEValkyrie]

Just another reason disc golf will not grow and the pro fields will not get bigger.

Why are sponsorships that are hard to find being added to microdivisions? Disc golf will never grow at the pro level if this continues. This is like starting the WNBA before the NBA.

10. Cale Leivaska- 36 Events - $13,277
1.   Des Reading- 23 Events- $12,430
11. Chris Sprague- 34 Events- $12,215
263. Brett Comincioli-18 Events- $1,074 Missing IL STS & Channahon.

There were 1,740 cash winners in MPO
There were 133 cash winners in FPO
stats provided by DGW on page 12.

[Cannon Boy]

If you are a AM and your rating is over 940 turn pro immidietly.  You will hang in their just fine, remember its only money.   lol 


I dont even know why I post this should be obvious.

[CEValkyrie]

If you are a AM and your rating is over 940 turn pro immidietly.  You will hang in their just fine, remember its only money.   lol 


I dont even know why I post this should be obvious.

Neal,

I don't think I could pull this off since I have a five o'clock shadow hours after shaving but I think you could. Start dressing like a girl and play FPO. You have some nice blonde hair for it. You could dominate!   

[Mukey]

If you are a AM and your rating is over 940 turn pro immidietly.  You will hang in their just fine, remember its only money.   lol 


I dont even know why I post this should be obvious.

Neal,

I don't think I could pull this off since I have a five o'clock shadow hours after shaving but I think you could. Start dressing like a girl and play FPO. You have some nice blonde hair for it. You could dominate!   

LOL!  Emliy Dickinson's bastard daughter?