Am IV for 2007

[Bruce Brakel]

This is an idea I've been thinking about.

Am IV would be a competitive division for PDGA members rated below 835.  We have a few players who would have the right to play in that division if it existed.  We could make it seem to exist if those players wanted that.  You'd get ratings, PDGA points and PDGA stats, and you'd get a payout based on how well you played against the other Am IV players, but when the TD report went in, it would look like you played Rec Men trophy-only.  Because you did.  That's our story and we're sticking to it!     No, seriously, this is something we could do within the standard format using a trophy-only entry fee and an Am IV only sidebet.

The Am IVs know who they are.  I was one once, maybe eight years before ratings were used for anything.  I would like to hear from them.  If you don't want to out yourself, feel free to log out and post as a guest. 

If you are an Am IV, or maybe can see yourself there in a ratings update or two, would you play that division?  If I were to lose my right arm, I would, until I shot my way up to Am III.  It would be more fun than DFL in some other division every time.  Let me know.

[stpitner]

I would love that idea.  I know I'm rated 842 right now, but that's because the ratings update only included my performance at Lombard, my (essentially) home course.  Hopefully I wouldn't stay in Am IV for long, but it would certainly make things more interesting considering I know that I have little to no chance of even placing in the top 15 of rec due to baggers and those that are rated on the top end of the rec cut-off.

Plus this would create a more friendly environment for people that are new and want to try out a tournament.

I'm a little confused on how it would work for trophy only + sidebet.  Sidebet uses your player pack, does it not?  I don't mind doing full entry fee, but I don't know about other AM IV's.

Will you only allow PDGA members with an established rating to play?  I would just fear a non-PDGA member coming in and playing as a bagger winning by an easy 8-10 strokes (which may or may not have placed in the payouts in rec).  With fewer people rated that low paying the full entry fee, it might get REALLY frustrating.

[Bruce Brakel]

Trophy-only + sidebet means that the sidebet would be an added cost.  So you would pay for trophy-only, get your player pack, and then if you wanted in on the Am IV payout, you'd also pay the difference between trophy-only and full fee, whatever that is for 2007 at our tournaments.  By doing it this way, there is nothing to report on the TD report that would require X-tier approval but an Am IV would get the same tournament experience as a Rec or Int player: a player pack, CTPs, a payout, trophies, rated rounds, etc.

Yes, we would limit participation to sub-835 rated players.  We would put first-time tournament players in Rec and tell them that if they think they'd rather play Am IV, they should join and get a rating.  Depending on when the rating updates occur, we might let a player in after he joined, but before he had a rating, if he had proved he belonged there.  This would be something special for those PDGA members who aren't really competitive in Rec but are paying their PDGA dues and proudly displaying an Am IV rating at pdga.com. 

On the TD report it would show you played rec trophy-only.  The payout for Am IV would be handled as a sidebet to avoid a funky looking, flag waving TD report.  If you won, you'd have an Am IV trophy to prove otherwise! 

I have two motivations for doing this that kind of blend together: when I look at our player base, there are a lot of nice people I'd like to see playing more of our tournaments who are Am IV rated.  They are paying dues to the PDGA and not really getting full value back, because the PDGA won't acknowledge they exist.  It took two or three years of me and one or two other tournament directors offering trophy-only options for the PDGA to see the value of that to the PDGA.  I think we could grow the sport faster and deeper if we looked to see if there is an untapped market here.  So locally, it seems like the right thing to do for Am IV rated players if it is something they want.  Nationally or internationally, it is probably the right thing for the PDGA to do if it wants to grow it membership base. 

I don't think this takes anything away from the rec division.  Most of our Am IV players are also our trophy-only players.  Currently they are mostly opting out of donating to the rec payout.  To me it just seems to be a right thing to do that takes nothing away from anyone but gives lower skilled players a reason to join the PDGA and play tournaments. 

[stpitner]

Rock on then   I'd be all for it!  It wouldn't make me feel as bad about being on the last card hehe.

Now watch, the ratings update will come out and I'll be 826 or something lol.  Guess that will mean that I need to play in another tournament this year to keep dragging it down

[Chainmeister]

The Am IVs know who they are. 

Yeah, they do

Its an intriguing idea.  However,since I am very, very, very rarely ever competing for anything other than the occassional CTP, its nice to play with better players. Would AM IV's be playing in their own ghetto or would they be intermixed with other rec players in the first round and then just likely to find each other for the second?

[Bruce Brakel]

The Am IVs know who they are. 

Yeah, they do

Its an intriguing idea.  However,since I am very, very, very rarely ever competing for anything other than the occassional CTP, its nice to play with better players. Would AM IV's be playing in their own ghetto or would they be intermixed with other rec players in the first round and then just likely to find each other for the second?

The answer to that is, I don't know.  It depends on how much Jon is willing to rock the boat.  804.06B has a "should" rather than a "must" so there would be TD discretion there.  I would lean toward keeping them together as their own division.  I think the competition within the group will do as much to improve your game as playing one round against a player rated 860 or 870 would.  Competition against similarly skilled players does wonders for the game, moreso than getting your butt kicked, in my opinion, but your experience may be different.  You'd be competitive in this division.  You'd be just as competitive in this division as I am in Advanced: sometimes getting prizes, once in a blue moon winning. 

[white_rhino]

I believe I would fall into this category and I would sidebet

[can't putt]

I think 874 is too high a rating for rec.  Many of the rec. players near the top threshold have been playing for many years, know all the terminology and disc flight characteristics, and have a great deal of tournament experience.  This, to me, is beyond "recreational" and should fairly be called "intermediate".  Therefore, I support the AMIV idea.

Regarding first tournament players, when I played competitive raquetball the tournaments offered a "novice" division for first timers.  Whatever your club rating, in your first tournament, and only in your first tournament, you could play novice.  This allowed the player to get their feet wet in a relaxed environment.  Referees would explain rulings, protocol and etiquette in detail to prepare the player for future events.  Something similar could be implemented in disc golf by setting up a novice division and asking advanced players, who would otherwise be ineligible to play that day, to volunteer to play with each group for no score.

Another thought grows out of the AMIV idea.  When Gary runs non-santioned events he often includes an "am. master" division for older folk who would otherwise play rec. or int.  In santioned events, he often offers awards to top masters playing int.  To me, am. master is a good idea.  There seem to be quite a few of us graybeards playing rec. and int. because we might not be competitive in adv. masters, but might enjoy playing with people their own age.  If you are adding phony divisions, am. master might be one to consider.

Finally, regarding stpitner's comment about not being able to finish top 15 due to baggers, in a series like the IOS are the non-PDGA regulars reviewed for appropriate placement?  These people still get round ratings, are their "pseudo-ratings" ever calculated?

[pickax]

Proudly being one of the lowest rated men out there, here's my take. I play trophy-only for two reasons. a) it's cheaper and I really don't need more discs and b) I probably won't cash anyway.

One issue I see with MA4 is that it would most likely be a micro-division.

Tournament	Number of PDGA members < 825
Kenosha	8
Lombard	1
Crystal Lake	5
Rockford	5
Streamwood	2

I suppose if you build it, they will come. I know after finishing last in my first tournament, I wasn't to eager to get out for another tournament. This doubly so, since it was unsanctioned, and hearing wind of guys playing both days. What were they doing playing down!?! Very disheartening to see the top Novice/Rec scores throwing under par for both rounds.

First time players are not going to commit $50 to join the PDGA so they can play in the bottom division. I think some creativity here is going to be required to let those that belong in MA4 into MA4 w/o a PDGA #.

[stpitner]

Finally, regarding stpitner's comment about not being able to finish top 15 due to baggers, in a series like the IOS are the non-PDGA regulars reviewed for appropriate placement?  These people still get round ratings, are their "pseudo-ratings" ever calculated?

If someone could find the thread that was discussing what is going to happen in regards to those players, yes, there is some investigation done.  However, it takes affect at the same time a regular PDGA update would happen, correct?  There was an email address that someone could send a message to the "little elves" that were running around checking scores for baggers on non-pdga members.  That might be something worthwhile to do.  The baggers might get a couple extra rounds in, but then after an update, hopefully they would be told they have to move up.

[Chainmeister]

I think Mike makes a good point that it could be a very small division even with big turnouts at tournaments.  I might or might not take the sidebet and play this division so I could say I win something once in a while.  However, its more about the play than winning.  If I shoot a 780 round and win  a disc in AM IV who cares?  If I have an 830 round and get nothing in rec I am thrilled.  Mike and Scott are good guys, just put me in a group with them and we can take pride in beating each other.

[stpitner]

bah i'd get sick of you two in a heartbeat    just kidding, but seriously, there are more than just the 3 of us.  (I hope you don't mind me calling your name out) but Diana has played in the rec men division a number of times, so she would be qualified to get in on the AMIV.  It probably would be a micro division every now and then, but you have to start somewhere.  Plus we would all like to be able to get over that 825 rating hump someday (or at least, I would!) so the people in it would hopefully always be changing.

[Bruce Brakel]

I see more Am IVs on the courses than I see Am Is.  When I ask them if they play tournaments they say, "No.  We aren't good enough."  So it is possible that the players to fill this division exist, but they don't have tournaments to play.  Illinois actually has 20 Am IV rated men right now.  Wisconsin too.  They exist.  They don't play a lot of tournaments. 

There is a ratings update at the end of September.  If you want to suggest a non-member who should be reviewed for baggerbumping, send e-mail to elves "at" brasscash.com.  Use the @ for "at".  I've heard bots steal e-mail addresses and spam them if they are typed normally.

[stpitner]

I've heard bots steal e-mail addresses and spam them if they are typed normally.

Thread drift, but in response to Bruce...
This is true, although usually it happens on higher traffic sites (eg. eBay).  But they go to lots of other sites too.  I actually tested this out on eBay once.  I have an email address that is ONLY listed on the auction listings and is not registered with eBay as my primary email to have official ebay-related emails sent to.  Thus far I have received 5 spoof emails to that account (keep in mind I use this email on NOTHING but the face of some of my auctions) where they are trying to steal my password and account information (clicking on the link in the bad email sending me to a non-eBay site that is made to look like eBay).

If you really don't want the address to be prone to bots stealing your addy, format it as the following:

elves AT brasscash DOT com

The bots more than likely will not pick that up as they do a pattern match to look for text-@ symbol - text - dot symbol - text.  I've done pattern matching on email addresses before (to confirm that you entered a valid email address on a form, not a bot!), and it's pretty simple to do... so that's why it commonly happens.

Scott
scott AT paperorplasticsports DOT com

[Bruce Brakel]

Kira shot five rounds of 799 and above at Women's Nationals.  There's another Am IV for you! 

[Bruce Brakel]

Please note that all references to 825 have been replaced with 835.  I talked to some higher ups about the idea, and they suggested 40 point spread similar to the Pros-Playing-Am and Lower Division Cap spreads. 

With that change, there are about 40 PDGA members in Illinois alone right now with an Am IV rating.  Some in southern Wisconsin too.  I've started creating a database and I'm going to do a mailing.  But now that i've figured out how to sell this idea to Lorrie, maybe she'll get me the database.

[pickax]

Please note that all references to 825 have been replaced with 835.  I talked to some higher ups about the idea, and they suggested 40 point spread similar to the Pros-Playing-Am and Lower Division Cap spreads. 

That's interesting based on Chuck's recent posts, one would think that he would recommend a wider spread for two reasons. a) The std dev is higher in lower divisions  2) the rating points per throw is higher in lower divisions

[Bruce Brakel]

Interesting point.  Did he suggest where he thought the spread should change from 40 to 50? 

Re-reading my e-mail, I think we'll stick with 835. 

[pickax]

http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Other%20PDGA%20Topics&Number=642791&Searchpage=0&Main=641334&Search=true&#Post642791

At the above link Chuck made this statement...

The lower the rating, the higher their scoring range. So, we set the ranges around 50 for divisions under 900. We've tightened it up to 40 points for Intermediate since the scoring range per player starts shrinking. The ranges we have were not made up but statistically determined to allow a player even with the lowest rating in a range to have a shot at cashing but not neccessarily winning. Also, players at the low end of a range are just as likely to be at the high end of a lower division as their rating stabilizes over the years and be the favorite sometimes.

[stpitner]

I have a question on the AM-IV side-bet.  Since you guys are offering a discounted pre-registration, trophy only is $15 pre-reg, $20 day of.  The AM-IV side bet covers the difference between trophy only and the full registration fee.  I'm kinda answering the question for myself as I'm typing this, but will the side-bet just be $10 for each AM-IV participating?  That's the difference in the price between trophy only and full registration.  It just looks confusing since you could pre-register at $15, but then full-fee on the day of is $30.  It makes you think that you need to put in another $15 to make it all equivalent, but I suppose that if everyone puts in $10, it doesn't matter if you pre-reg or register day of.

Perhaps if you want to be AM-IV you are required to pre-register?  This division already has to be a pre-established group of names... Just throwing that out there.

As cool as I think the idea for AM-IV is, I really do hope that I won't be in AM-IV by the end of the IOS2007 year!