The Future of Disc Golf?

[jasonc]

Sr. I'm not saying that disc golf is the only sport where pot smoking is done alot. I am just saying that the disc golf family has been tarnished as dope smokers, hippies. That is why we don't see the BIG MONEY being thrown at this sport. That is the bottom line, no matter who here beleives it. Am I happy about it? No not at all, but my eyes are open, and I see what goes on in between rounds at any event. at least 10 cars have golfers in them, blazing up. If I can see it, I'm sure others do as well.

I know this, but I still play between 12-15  sanctioned tournaments each year, because I love the game and the competition.
I would love to be able to quit my 60 hour a week job, to play disc every weekend and be set financially, but that will never happen, for me, or probably not for any Open player on the NT unless their family  already has money.  

Your belief and constant regurgitation that the "disc golf family has been tarnished as dope smokers, hippies" only helps perpetuate the myth.  There are plenty of "squares" out on the courses as well.  How is this any different from ball golf?  I would not expect to see golfers chugging beers in between swings at the PGA Championship, but I would certainly expect to see it at any number of local courses if I were to watch a casual or league round. 

If you hear someone say that only hippies play disc golf, why not take that opportunity and turn it into a quick lesson on why it is simply a myth?  At this time, there is no existing PDGA member requirement for you to acknowledge the existence of disc golfer hippies. 

Would it be impossible to un-tarnish disc golf and create a new identity based around the world's best players?
 
Did baseball survive the black sox, steroids, and other unsavory reputations? 


IMHO, He who has the most fun STILL wins!   

[fathergod]

 Exposure of the sport is the main thing.

I've noticed Adler having a lot more chuckers since the 2009 tournament which was profiled in the local newspapers.  Even though they are chuckers its still a good thing to have them on the course.  Sure it annoys you to no end but if we could somehow educate those players, perhaps it would help.  Also, perhaps taking some money that a tournament takes in could go to placing an ad in the local newspapers.  That's where the PDGA fails at.  Local exposure of the game for the chuckers or people interested in the game.  I don't know how many times I've given out the PDGA website and people ask huh?


Now... I know there's a lot of people who like tie dye discs and multi-colored but I think that hurts the game for chuckers.  They don't care to know their disc, just that it fits well in their hands and its a pretty cool color. I've seen chuckers with majorally overstable discs that just make a hard left out of their hand and they get ribbed by their group for "not being able to throw."
I recall the tournaments back in 98 where no matter how well you did, everyone got a free disc which helped me stay playing.



Going back to the topic, I think they are perhaps doing it every other year so they can save money for a bigger tournament that year instead of every year.  Only thing I can think of

[smyith]

Smyith, I have two questions for you:

1) How can a sport succeed commercially if no one wants to watch it? I'm not saying that it can't but I don't know what the business model is. Almost no one wants to watch disc golf. At every tournament that I am a TD or a volunteer at, I talk to casual players that came out to play. One of the alternatives to playing the course that I offer up is to watch some of the best local pros play the course. Approximately all of these players opt to do something else than to watch someone play disc golf. Occasionally some will stick around and watch the pros throw their drives. They seem impressed with their skill, but they still don't watch any more. I have rarely seen players who are injured come out to watch a tournament even though they have the time. There are more PDGA members in Illinois than there are players that play tournaments. Even those guys don't come out to a tournament or two to watch. I think all of the sports you mentioned had a lot of spectators before they ever had TV. They also have lots of spectators for events that are smaller and not televised. So, if there are no viewers, what will drive the sport commercially?

2) If you had $1,000,000 of seed money to invest in disc golf, what would you do with it?

1) Most people I know who don't want to watch it got tainted when they saw the early videos. (the drunken clip shows) Most think that thats what it would be on TV. As far as traveling to watch tournaments, I don't think there is much interest in that because of the type of people who play, either they would rather go play at an open course, be with their families (the majority...i think), or be getting wasted somewhere. alot of the sports i mentioned had their families there to cheer them on. i cant think of anyone who likes to bring their family to watch. all to common, we have several tournament players that need that dead silence, no shadow, or no one in their peripherals. Those people get so upset about the dumbest *beep*, that attitude, which is very prevalent, isn't conducive to audiences. also you got those big massive waits at some tournaments (30sec rule (801.03) needs to start being enforced by all, its outta hand), who wants to stand around for that. at the MXG open we had some ridiculous wait times 2nd round. one of the guys in my group had his family following and watching (awesome spectators by the way, never even noticed them while playing the holes). they got sick of waiting they left. there are so many issues that play into this whole issue of why disc golf isn't in the media. from speed of play to image to money. the problem is that everyone wants to do it one step at a time. sorry but that takes way to long and its easy to lose sight of the original goal. massive change in a short amount of time is much more effective and farther reaching than gradual change.
And i do understand your point but i dont agree on the lack of marketability. im not in marketing and dont know the ins and outs, but if anyone and everyone is capable of playing, they can figure out a way to market it to the mainstream media. Maybe thats what we need instead of money. pay a top-notch marketing firm some money to get it rolling. the PDGA needs to start doing something with our membership dues. it would definitely be nice to know where the money goes, its definitely not towards growing the sport.

2) i've actually thought about this several times. i think i would put together an A-teir invite only tournament. then make the prize money huge, like $50k to the winner of MPO and $30k to FPO and then add some more money to it for everyone else. I would then use the rest to pay a company like comcast sportsnet or the golf channel (or whoever does their media coverage?) to come tape it and put it on the air. Showcase only the best players on a beautiful course and have a crew on every hole or following every group, 18 total no more. i dont think $900k would be enough to pay them though. i would also request that it be aired during a weekday night. not on the weekend!!!!! the people who are going to watch arn't going to be home to watch on the weekend. another thing with the announcers too. no *beep-ing* whispering like in golf either. talk like normal, laugh and cheer, "soccer style" announcing. it should be taped like ball golf but have the personality of the our sport. we are a joyful and fun community, it should be showcased. I love the Clash series but the whispering crap makes me want to turn it off.

[smyith]

2) If you had $1,000,000 of seed money to invest in disc golf, what would you do with it?

I am actually pretty curious how people would answer this question.  Personally, my number one goal would be to construct sort of what Lemon Lake has.  Several courses in one area that cater to all skill levels.  I would supplement that with the addition of a pro shop that would also function as a teaching clinic with (budget permitting) permanent teaching pro.  Whatever is left over would be used to run tournaments at this location.

I feel this would not only help in what should be the number one priority (spreading the sport) but also with the intent of creating more tournaments at more attractive venues to appease current players.

the number one priority shouldnt be spreading the sport, it should be popularizing the sport. wording my friend, wording. it will spread with popularity faster than it will with our own effort.
also, building complex is great for playing but not for advancement. look at highbridge hills, that place is amazing!!!! its turning out to be a flop. primarily cause its in the middle of nowhere tho. BRP is in a great spot but it to hasnt done anything for popularizing the sport. its popular within the community but thats it.

[Jon Brakel]

1) I enjoy watching disc golf. At the last IOS my brother and I watched people tee off and play hole 1 all day at Eagle Ridge. We brought cribbage but never got it out. I think it is enjoyable to watch everyone play one hole and see how different people play it. But it isn't fun like watching snow boarding is fun. No one's doing a triple up the wazzoo flip in disc golf! I think if people aren't going to watch a sport live then they aren't very likely to watch it on TV either.

2) One reason that I asked what you would do with a $1,000,000 in seed money is because most dream goals can be worked on for less. The first disc golf TV venture produced a television show at a different tournament each week. It was aired on a cable chanel that I didn't get but you could also buy the episodes on disc. I had a friend tape the show for me every week and I bought the DVDs. They went out of business after about two years after spending their initial investment money. The show was great. Professionally done in every way. It got practically zero for ratings and not very many people bought the discs either.

I don't think the average viewer is going to care if first place is getting paid $5000 or $50000. They just want to watch "something good" on TV. They want to watch something compelling.

So, my next question for Smyith is:

3) Where should the money come from that should be "thrown at the sport"?

[pdga#7648]

I can answer that.

where do our renewal membership fees go?  not towards growing the sport for sure. PDGA, INNOVA, DISCRAFT, have plenty of money they could throw out to tournys. Doesn't the PDGA get money from you when you run a tournament Jon? How much of our money do they need before they start giving some of it back to those that are current? Little doggie tags when we renew cost what $5.00.  cmon the bumper stickers might cost them $1.00

[fathergod]

 I'm no longer PDGA current but if you look at their magazines, they have a breakdown of their expenses and funds available.

[Dan Michler]

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/09-10_PDGA_Financial_Summary_Public.pdf

$1.36 million income in 2009.

This includes $695K from memberships and $439K from tournament fees.  Also took in $89K from sponsors/advertising, $84K from merchandise, and $54K from the International Disc Golf Center.



Total expenses were $1.1 million in 2009.

This includes $334K for 5 full-time office staff, 5 consultants, accountants, employer taxes, health insurance, workmen's comp, and web consultant.

$153K was spent fulfilling your membership and event packages

$171K went to the magazine and membership gifts

$131K went to Majors and NT sponsorships and the Marshal's Program

$71K on marketing

$61K was spent on the IDGC.  $44K on office equipment. $50K on IT and $31K on merchandise, etc...

[Jon Brakel]

I can answer that.

where do our renewal membership fees go?  not towards growing the sport for sure. PDGA, INNOVA, DISCRAFT, have plenty of money they could throw out to tournys. Doesn't the PDGA get money from you when you run a tournament Jon? How much of our money do they need before they start giving some of it back to those that are current? Little doggie tags when we renew cost what $5.00.  cmon the bumper stickers might cost them $1.00

The PDGA is not sitting on a nest egg of millions of dollars. The PDGA publishes where all the money goes every year. If you don't agree on how the PDGA is spending your money then you need to get organized and help make some changes.

Discraft and Innova are private companies so I know that you don't know how much money either company has to sponsor tournaments. How much money are those companies already putting back into the sport? How much do you think is the right amount?

I can tell you that Discraft and Innova are not pulling in millions of dollars in profit. If there were millions of dollars to be had then some sporting goods companies would have expanded into the disc golf market.

[pdga#7648]

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/09-10_PDGA_Financial_Summary_Public.pdf

$1.36 million income in 2009.

This includes $695K from memberships and $439K from tournament fees.  Also took in $89K from sponsors/advertising, $84K from merchandise, and $54K from the International Disc Golf Center.



Total expenses were $1.1 million in 2009.

This includes $334K for 5 full-time office staff, 5 consultants, accountants, employer taxes, health insurance, workmen's comp, and web consultant.

$153K was spent fulfilling your membership and event packages

$171K went to the magazine and membership gifts

$131K went to Majors and NT sponsorships and the Marshal's Program

$71K on marketing

$61K was spent on the IDGC.  $44K on office equipment. $50K on IT and $31K on merchandise, etc...

okay, so they made $260,000 in 2009. Now add up all the profits for 15 other years, and you come up with ALOT of money, correct?

[smyith]

I'm no longer PDGA current but if you look at their magazines, they have a breakdown of their expenses and funds available.

where is that? ive never noticed that in that horrible excuse for a magazine.

[Jon Brakel]

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/09-10_PDGA_Financial_Summary_Public.pdf

$1.36 million income in 2009.

This includes $695K from memberships and $439K from tournament fees.  Also took in $89K from sponsors/advertising, $84K from merchandise, and $54K from the International Disc Golf Center.



Total expenses were $1.1 million in 2009.

This includes $334K for 5 full-time office staff, 5 consultants, accountants, employer taxes, health insurance, workmen's comp, and web consultant.

$153K was spent fulfilling your membership and event packages

$171K went to the magazine and membership gifts

$131K went to Majors and NT sponsorships and the Marshal's Program

$71K on marketing

$61K was spent on the IDGC.  $44K on office equipment. $50K on IT and $31K on merchandise, etc...

okay, so they made $260,000 in 2009. Now add up all the profits for 15 other years, and you come up with ALOT of money, correct?

I don't believe they have had a surplus of income for the last 15 years.

[Jon Brakel]

OK, this is my last post on this subject for the next two years...

Obviously I think that you can't just "throw money" at the sport to make it suddenly become popular and no one here is going to convince me otherwise.

Here is your challenge:

Prove me wrong!

[Chainmeister]

Jon, I'll take the bait. If there was any excess money I would improve the quality and quantity of webcasts.  This is a lower cost option and creates footage that conceivably could be sent to broadcast or cable for highlights.  Maybe broadcast of events is a long way off. However, if there is a playoff at USDGC or some other event it might be worth 15 seconds of highlights if there is some cool video to go with it.  

If we are going to urge PDGA to take leadership this may be the place.  I think they should chose a major event  at a scenic location and broadcast the lead card(s) of the last couple rounds.  There should be a couple of cameras and the broadcast team (of volunteers) should have done some advance work and have stats etc and not the hokey interviews and "banter" we have seen.  Frankly, Terry has been one of the better talking heads.  I could do without pretty much all of the others.  If PDGA had an excess of over $250000 last year I do not see that as a sign of huge windfalls.  However, its enough money to use some to take a crack at a high quality webcast.  Webcasting can serve as the bridge to see if it ever catches an audience.  There should be no fee.  We are not looking for the webcast to make money or even break even. We are looking for it to demonstate an audience.  We don't want to put up any barriers to getting larger numbers of viewers.  If PDGA can show it is gaining a foothold of viiwers it may be able to get some ads on its webcasts to help defray costs. If it grows from there... who knows?   If it fails, they tried and we will have to accept the fringe status of the sport.


I had wondered if IOS should try to webcast its A-tier. If I was a teenager and could start all over I would want to grow up to be a baseball play by play announcer.  Fantasy aside, its more realistic to have an organization like PDGA take a crack at it. Most disc golfers are pretty nerdy and most would be comfortable with a webcast.

[Dan Michler]

To Smyith, yes the balance sheet is in the magazine every year.  Also, I just posted a link to the pdf file located at pdga.com.  The information is public.  They list their net worth as $338K, so they have not been accumulating $250K a year for the last 10 years according to their accounting information.

I think Barish makes a good suggestion.  Funding a higher quality live webcast for Worlds or USDGC would be interesting.  Nothing against those who have put forth the effort to make live webcasts in past events, but the footage has been difficult to follow and ultimately, not exciting to watch.  If we could get live footage of the quality we see on the Clash, Vibram Open, or USDGC DVD's, I think the actual excitment of the action might carry over to the viewer.

I would have loved to have seen high quality footage of Nikko throwing OB and missing a 15 footer on the final hole of last week's Skylands NT event, to throw away a 1 stroke lead and miss a sudden death playoff with Feldberg and Orum.  Or how about watching the 2003 legendary Schultz/Climo USDGC sudden death playoff live?  It was awesome to watch on the DVD, but I already knew the outcome before I popped it in.  Sports is meant to be watched live.

I have no clue how much a quality live webcast would cost.  Its probably a lot.  Maybe more than can be reasonably afforded.  But if it can be done for $250K, I think it would be worthwhile.  Some of the other expenditures are obvoiusly just as unnecessary and could be cut if needed.  I would like to see if a significant audience for this type of webcast could develop.

[fathergod]

Gonna sound dumb but what about having a channel just for Disc Golf.    I'd actually enjoy watching videos like the stuff Discraft does online

[smyith]

@ Jon
Who's talking about throwing money at it? They can intelligently "invest" more into the sport to send it down a different direction then the current one.
*deleted response* - i chose to send a personal message instead. I'm disappointed in his view of the people in this forum and the words he has chosen to express. they show a lack of respect.

@ fathergod
Whos gonna pay for that to happen? that is a ridiculous amount of money that only the biggest sports can afford.

@ Chainmeister
Interesting i never thought of the webcasts. I agree every attempt has been relatively weak and hacked together. i gotta admit though i do like billy crump as an announcer. i just wish that he would quit the whisper stuff and talk normal. Announcing should be how people are on the course. laughing and joking around, telling stories, all that good stuff.

[fathergod]

Here is the corporate information for both Discraft and Innova




Discraft Inc Business Information
Location Type    Single Location
Annual Sales (Estimated)    $20 to 50 million
Employees (Estimated)    20 to 49
D&B: 25
SIC Code    509111, Sporting Goods-Wholesale
NAICS Code    423910, Sporting Goods Merchant Whls
Products, Services and Brands    Information not found
State of Incorporation    Michigan
Years in Business    23



Innova Champion Discs inc.
Location Type     Single Location
Annual Sales (Estimated)    $2.5 to 5 million
Employees (Estimated)    10 to 19
D&B: 25
SIC Code    394923, Sporting & Athletic Goods Nec (Mfrs)
NAICS Code    339920, Sporting & Athletic Goods Manufacturing
Products, Services and Brands    Information not found
State of Incorporation    Information not found
Years in Business    27

[pdga#7648]

lmao.

to some of your likings, no need for me to say anymore on this topic

[smyith]

no way does innova make less sales than discraft. those numbers are bunk