The Future of Disc Golf?

[pdga#7648]

The high school where I live has a team and a club. I joined the website, told them how long I have been playing, and offered to play with them or put on a demonstration for the club, about a month a a half ago, still no response. I don't know if the club split up or what, but I thought 1 person might send me a message with interest?
I just don't understand how people think golfers would rather pay money to play, than play for free. I have at least 12 course within 30 minutes of my house that are free. The one they are designing is 35 minutes away, and I have to pay to play. If I have been playing for free for 18 years(excluding tournaments and leagues) why now would I want to spend money to play? No matter how nice the course is, it probably wont be harder than McNaughtons long tees! Period!

If you Pros want to spend the money you win to play or practice a casual round, feel free. I just simply stated I wouldn't do it, as it makes absolutely no sense.

[Bruce Brakel]

P2P: I had an omlette at a Coney Island in Waterford and it cost $6.  I had an omlette at Forte in Birmingham and it cost $12.  What you get for your other $6 are the other people you are eating the omlette with. 

Maybe half of the courses around here are P2P but the P2P fee is pretty nominal -- a $25 annual pass or a $2 to $4 daily fee at most places.  The P2P fee keeps some people off the course, but mostly it keeps off the right people.

Actually, though, every course is P2P.  It is just a question of who is paying and who is playing.  Your neighbor is paying for your disc golf experience at the "free" public course, and since he does not give a rat's ass about disc golf, that explains why you still have crushed limestone tees ten years after the course was installed, and why you are sharing space with a jogging path, tot lot and practice soccer field.

Growing the sport I.  A guy tried to grow professional croquet in England by following the PDGA model: charge a steep cash entry fee and pay it back to the players.  He charged enough to get a lot of players interested.  Unfortunately, England law frowns on that sort of thing and he had a big enough pool to attract the attention of the police.  There are states that have laws similar to England's.  Consult your attorney before you "grow the sport."

Growing the sport II.  The only sport I know that intentionally grew itself was soccer.  The US Soccer Federation tried top down attempts several times, finding investors to throw money at professional soccer.  Finally they gave up on that and decided to take a ten-year hiatus from supporting professional soccer.  Instead they threw all their energy into schools and leagues for children.  They grew a huge player base for soccer.  It is still boring to watch. 

Growing the sport III.  In 2001, I think, I was sitting near hole 1 at Hudson Mills discussing this topic with Jim Kenner, owner of Discraft, and couple of other players.  Jim said, "We don't have to do anything to grow the sport.  It is fun to play and inexpensive.  Growth is inevitable." 

Growing the sport IV: I think this is mostly about some people wanting to validate what they do by growing it into the mainstream.  What we do is valid regardless of the number of people who join us.  What we do is valid regardless of whether stoners and alcoholics enjoy doing it too.  I don't think any of you have identified an actual problem that you have that would be solved by making disc golf larger.  What is your problem that you think would be solved by growing the sport? 

Growing the sport V: Did you watch the live coverage of USDGC on the last day?  I actually watch pro disc golf at courses when I cannot play, but I was too busy playing disc golf to watch USDGC live. 

Errors and Omissions.  Innova manufactures and sells about three times as many golf discs as Discraft, according to insiders at Innova and Discraft.  Both manufacture discs for other labels.  Discraft manufactures most DGA discs.  Innova manufactures all Millenium discs.  Innova has other companies they manufacture for.  Innova and Carolina Flying Discs (Innova East) are separately incorporated which might make Innova look smaller than it is.  Discraft owns most of the serious Ultimate business with Whamo coming in second. 

The PGA Tour has 125 players and 25 alternates.  That larger number, 28,000 or whatever was quoted, is members, not Tour players.  Club pros are almost always members, as are teaching pros who are not employed by a club.  A sport as big as golf can only support about 125 top tier professional touring pros. 

The USGA only has about one million active members, as far as I can tell from my internet research.  So it takes about one million serious players and a larger number of casual players to support 125 touring pros and 25 alternates.  If you can get them to watch on TV! 

[roman]

Doug, when you live in a smaller town with lots of land of course it will be tough to argue pay to play courses. I was up in Minneapolis earlier this summer where the disc golf scene is VERY active, and they have a huge variety of 18 hole courses both pay to play and free. The free courses are all old, short, and run down. The pay to play courses are well maintained and have beautiful tees, greens, fairways, etc. You can really tell they had money to put into the courses. Every one of them was packed when I played, even the pay to play courses. I think if you have a great course in an active community then pay to play will not turn people away. Most of the people paying to play disc golf these days are not the casual beginners that don't know the rules and are inconsiderate to others. I would pay money just to avoid courses with rude players.

Check out Bryant Lake park in Minneapolis just to have an idea of what pay to play can offer as far as maintenance goes - when I played that course, there was a group on every tee. It was packed, but the flow was smooth. There wasn't too many waiting.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=763

[roman]

Pardon the typos. If I could go back and edit them, I would. The forum keeps throwing out errors when I try to hit the edit button.

[fathergod]

Perfect example is Adler park in Libertyville..   When it was 18 holes, it was a fun and challenging course every time you played and was free to play.  The park district did a good job for many years keeping it updated.  Then they went in and redesigned the park.  We lost 9 holes and the years of use have caused some holes to be unplayable after a heavy downpour.  A few of the baskets really need to be replaced and in the summer, some days you can't even play two holes because of the summer camp kids.  Also, it has a huge following of chuckers who grab a friend or two, go off to Walgreens and buy overpriced discs that they can barely throw and almost take over the course on the weekends.  I'm extremely surprised we didn't have any problems with chuckers during the Libertyville tournament we had this year. 


So.. Would I pay $2-4 a day to play at that park?   Hell yeah because the chuckers would leave and the money spent would be used to purchase new baskets and to help with the mud issue.   My father had a good idea when I discussed with him the problems with Adler.  He said, well you pay Tuesdays to play in the league correct?  So instead of having the fee $5, have it $7 and use the extra 2 that u get from each player and save it.   It's great to win $400 from an ace but that is ONE basket right there that could be replaced or new sod for the course.

So there are benefits for p2p courses

[pdga#7648]

Doug, when you live in a smaller town with lots of land of course it will be tough to argue pay to play courses. I was up in Minneapolis earlier this summer where the disc golf scene is VERY active, and they have a huge variety of 18 hole courses both pay to play and free. The free courses are all old, short, and run down. The pay to play courses are well maintained and have beautiful tees, greens, fairways, etc. You can really tell they had money to put into the courses. Every one of them was packed when I played, even the pay to play courses. I think if you have a great course in an active community then pay to play will not turn people away. Most of the people paying to play disc golf these days are not the casual beginners that don't know the rules and are inconsiderate to others. I would pay money just to avoid courses with rude players.

Check out Bryant Lake park in Minneapolis just to have an idea of what pay to play can offer as far as maintenance goes - when I played that course, there was a group on every tee. It was packed, but the flow was smooth. There wasn't too many waiting.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=763

last I checked, Peoria wasn't a small town.

but I have beautiful courses already.
and the chuckers, also need to be taught ettiquette, so teach them, don't just avoid those people.
not trying to argue with anyone on this topic. I just stated my feelings.

[smyith]

Doug, when you live in a smaller town with lots of land of course it will be tough to argue pay to play courses. I was up in Minneapolis earlier this summer where the disc golf scene is VERY active, and they have a huge variety of 18 hole courses both pay to play and free. The free courses are all old, short, and run down. The pay to play courses are well maintained and have beautiful tees, greens, fairways, etc. You can really tell they had money to put into the courses. Every one of them was packed when I played, even the pay to play courses. I think if you have a great course in an active community then pay to play will not turn people away. Most of the people paying to play disc golf these days are not the casual beginners that don't know the rules and are inconsiderate to others. I would pay money just to avoid courses with rude players.

Check out Bryant Lake park in Minneapolis just to have an idea of what pay to play can offer as far as maintenance goes - when I played that course, there was a group on every tee. It was packed, but the flow was smooth. There wasn't too many waiting.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=763

You most have not had much time to tour all of the twin cities. Bryant Lake is a weak P2P course, compared to Hyland, Elm Creek, and BRP (the other P2P courses in the area). Yes it is fantastically maintained but it isn't anymore challenging then Oakwood, Lakewood Hills, North Valley (or whatever they call it now), Kaposia (i still think this is the hardest course in the area), and thats just what comes to mind. There are several 12 holers that come close in quality as well. Just cause they aren't as 'pretty' doesn't mean their not well maintained. In the year i lived there not once did i go to any of the free courses and see a poorly maintained course. But the twin cities has a huge advantage over most of the country, they have Timmy Gill and Chuck Kennedy right in town.

Growing the sport II.  The only sport I know that intentionally grew itself was soccer.  The US Soccer Federation tried top down attempts several times, finding investors to throw money at professional soccer.  Finally they gave up on that and decided to take a ten-year hiatus from supporting professional soccer.  Instead they threw all their energy into schools and leagues for children.  They grew a huge player base for soccer.  It is still boring to watch. 

Growing the sport IV: I think this is mostly about some people wanting to validate what they do by growing it into the mainstream.  What we do is valid regardless of the number of people who join us.  What we do is valid regardless of whether stoners and alcoholics enjoy doing it too.  I don't think any of you have identified an actual problem that you have that would be solved by making disc golf larger.  What is your problem that you think would be solved by growing the sport? 

Growing the sport V: Did you watch the live coverage of USDGC on the last day?  I actually watch pro disc golf at courses when I cannot play, but I was too busy playing disc golf to watch USDGC live. 

II - LOL! thats funny, soccer sucks

IV - You know I never thought about it that way. The reason I want to grow the sport is to develop better courses, i think that if the sport is more mainstream, districts/officials will be more willing to give the land and support higher caliber courses. I am all for P2P in the area, and i think for this area to move up in the disc golf scene is to have some top notch P2P courses.

V - I watched what I could while at work, but i made sure to leave my home computer and work computer on it all day to drive up ratings and viewrer numbers.

[CEValkyrie]

I like the idea of both free and pay to play. I  would be willing ot pay to have a good pay to play course near me.

Check out discgolfcoursereview.com
Almost all of the top courses are private and/or pay to play.

I don't think pay to play would grow the sport any more than the current free courses we have. The crappy courses around me have tons of people on them all year. That # continue's to grow each year.
Round Lake- tons of use.
Adler- tons of use.
Crystal Lake-tons of use.
Gurnee- moderate use.
Grayslake- moderate use.
Bevier- 5 years ago I could go out there and i'd be the only one on the course. Now there are groups out there every day.

[WkeBrd3]

Bevier- 5 years ago I could go out there and i'd be the only one on the course. Now there are groups out there every day.

Same with Shady Oaks..

[roman]

last I checked, Peoria wasn't a small town.

but I have beautiful courses already.
and the chuckers, also need to be taught ettiquette, so teach them, don't just avoid those people.
not trying to argue with anyone on this topic. I just stated my feelings.

You probably don't have the same chuckers as we do here. The last time someone threw on me and I tried to tell them to stop, the guy came up to me and grabbed four discs out of my bag and sprayed them into a field. Last year after some 10 year old kids threw on a group of high school chuckers, those high school punks came after the 10 year olds. One of the locals stepped up trying to stop the ridiculous fight and ended up getting slammed face first into the sidewalk and beaten.

You can go ahead and speak to these kids if you want, but I'll just go to another course - or pay to avoid them. I have enough shit in my day.

[pdga#7648]

wow, I totally see your point.
no we don't have that around here. usually I can go to any course and not have anything like that ever happen. maybe if you throw at them they may throw your disc back(several times actually) but never altercations.

[Steven Jacobs]

Yes, there are middle school disc theives at warren too.  It sucks when they're around.

[smyith]

last I checked, Peoria wasn't a small town.

but I have beautiful courses already.
and the chuckers, also need to be taught ettiquette, so teach them, don't just avoid those people.
not trying to argue with anyone on this topic. I just stated my feelings.

You probably don't have the same chuckers as we do here. The last time someone threw on me and I tried to tell them to stop, the guy came up to me and grabbed four discs out of my bag and sprayed them into a field. Last year after some 10 year old kids threw on a group of high school chuckers, those high school punks came after the 10 year olds. One of the locals stepped up trying to stop the ridiculous fight and ended up getting slammed face first into the sidewalk and beaten.

You can go ahead and speak to these kids if you want, but I'll just go to another course - or pay to avoid them. I have enough shit in my day.

id like to know where youve had this happen. id like to go play a round there

[roman]

Willow Stream. Not sure if it will be worth it for you. The cops ended up finding the guys that were involved in the fight last year - not sure what ever happened with that.

[Jon Brakel]

I don't think that pay to play will supplant no-fee courses. I think they will co-exist drawing their own segment of players, and some of the same players. A disc golf course is so ridiculously inexpensive to a PD than most of their other projects, that they think of it like a walking path. Most of them would not think to charge their patrons to play disc golf.

Pay to play works for me if I'm paying to play in an exclusive disc golf area. Where I don't have to share the disc golf course with joggers, bikers, dog walkers, etc. It also works for me because I know that I won't be playing between groups of 8+ chuckers on the holes in front and behind me.

[fathergod]

Chuckers will never contribute anything to disc golf.  Sorry to say that but the game has been around for awhile now and nothing has changed with them.  They are still the rude, non-knowing or caring of the rules, trash dropping jerks!    The general public look at both groups and only see the chuckers but yet call them disc golfers. I was at Adler yesterday and had a group of 4 chuckers in front of me and a mother and her two 8 year oldish kids behind me with frisbees.  The chuckers instead of throwing one disc, would each throw 2 and then when they finally did get to the basket, they stood around putting about 3-4 times.  By the time we got to hole 4 I had enough and tried to explain to them that you throw one disc and then when you put a disc into the basket, you move on.  They started to swear,  telling me to mind my own business and called me "Mr Disc golfer".   At that point, the mother left with her kids.  Chuckers hurt the game more than anything which is why I've come to support p2p courses.  Let those idiots have the courses that the park districts don't care about.  Thats the other thing I'm sick of.  Park Districts who don't give a rats ass for the course. They just build them to get people to the park that no one comes to anyways.  During the summer, I was walking to my car when the grass cutter called out to me.  Turns out I left a disc and he said that I was lucky to get it back because he was told to just throw away any disc that he finds, EVEN if they have a phone number on it.   Nice eh?

[smyith]

Chuckers will never contribute anything to disc golf.

WRONG! Chuckers are where the money is at. They lose discs the most and are easy to get to buy the "prettiest" (most expensive disc). every sport makes a good deal of their money off their "chuckers"

[fathergod]

Disc golf player:

$25-30 for entry fee for a tournament.
Now add money you spend at the merch table.
Plus lunch
Oh and gas money
And hotel if it's not close



A chucker will buy maybe two-three discs at the start of spring/summer.  Possibly one or two more if they lose a disc during that time however I've seen chuckers spend just as much time as we do looking for discs.   



Since you brought up the topic of expensive discs... Why are they so expensive?   Because chuckers buy them or because we do?    The average chucker doesn't give a shit if a disc is used for anny's or rollers or anything else. They aren't going on Discraft's website and creaming their pants when they find out there's a new disc called a nuke.  They buy it because it sounds cool and fits good in their hands.  WE are the ones who care about rolling, overstable, understable, annys, hyzers etc etc etc

[Steven Jacobs]

Disc golf player:

$25-30 for entry fee for a tournament.
Now add money you spend at the merch table.
Plus lunch
Oh and gas money
And hotel if it's not close



A chucker will buy maybe two-three discs at the start of spring/summer.  Possibly one or two more if they lose a disc during that time however I've seen chuckers spend just as much time as we do looking for discs.   



Since you brought up the topic of expensive discs... Why are they so expensive?   Because chuckers buy them or because we do?    The average chucker doesn't give a shit if a disc is used for anny's or rollers or anything else. They aren't going on Discraft's website and creaming their pants when they find out there's a new disc called a nuke.  They buy it because it sounds cool and fits good in their hands.  WE are the ones who care about rolling, overstable, understable, annys, hyzers etc etc etc

I believe he meant, money in the disc golf industry, not the necessities the extreme minority tourney players buys.  I'm pretty sure chulkers make up 90% or more of all disc golfers.