The Future of Disc Golf?

[pickax]

 Innova may have the larger market share for disc golf, but Discraft has a larger share in other disc sports. Keep in mind that those numbers are just estimates because they are both privately held.

[fathergod]

   Actually I can see that being true.   If you notice Innova has fewer employees and they also have a smaller factory in size compared to Discraft.    Discraft also has a bigger internet presence.

Maybe its just me but I feel like Innova and Lat64 are like fine wine.  In both companies I haven't seen a problem with their molds while Discraft has numerous molds that are inconsistent with flight.

[Jon Brakel]

OK, this is my last post on this subject for the next two years...

Obviously I think that you can't just "throw money" at the sport to make it suddenly become popular and no one here is going to convince me otherwise.

Here is your challenge:

Prove me wrong!

At least one person didn't understand what I meant by saying "Prove me wrong!" so I thought I would clarify before moving on. This is what I sent him in a PM, I just cut and pasted that here.

I have a feeling that you might have taken my challenge of "prove me wrong" the wrong way. I don't mean on this forum right now. What I mean is that for well over 10 years now I have put in hundreds of hours of volunteer work every year into trying to make the sport of disc golf better. I have been doing the things that I think will lead to the sport growing. My statement was to simply challenge you and anyone else that think there is a better way, to be the change that you want to happen. If you change the sport for the better, you will prove me wrong. And I'll be glad to be wrong!

@ Jon
Who's talking about throwing money at it? They can intelligently "invest" more into the sport to send it down a different direction then the current one.

And I had to respond to this because I started using the phrase throwing money at it after you used it in the post quoted below. Actually you said it twice in that post.

...Why i say they need to "throw" money at the sport, ...
Ball golf wasn't anything until someone started throwing money at it. And as soon as that happened it blew up. All its gonna take to make disc golf a multi-million dollar industry is to clean up its image...and to make it worth ($) playing the sport...

Sorry for lying about my previous post being my last post on this subject for a while. I thought I should clear up a couple of things though. Now I *think* I'm done! 

[acedeucelefty]

Here is the corporate information for both Discraft and Innova




Discraft Inc Business Information
Location Type    Single Location
Annual Sales (Estimated)    $20 to 50 million
Employees (Estimated)    20 to 49
D&B: 25
SIC Code    509111, Sporting Goods-Wholesale
NAICS Code    423910, Sporting Goods Merchant Whls
Products, Services and Brands    Information not found
State of Incorporation    Michigan
Years in Business    23



Innova Champion Discs inc.
Location Type     Single Location
Annual Sales (Estimated)    $2.5 to 5 million
Employees (Estimated)    10 to 19
D&B: 25
SIC Code    394923, Sporting & Athletic Goods Nec (Mfrs)
NAICS Code    339920, Sporting & Athletic Goods Manufacturing
Products, Services and Brands    Information not found
State of Incorporation    Information not found
Years in Business    27

My info shows Discraft with annual sales of $32.8mm and 49 employees and Innova with annual sales of $4.1mm and 14 employees.  It's likely and possible Innova operates under various subsidiaries that recognize revenue which accounts for the apparent difference in revenue. 

[smyith]

@jon

you obviously didnt READ my pm to you. i could care less about proving you wrong. you trivialized an argument because you disagree with it. thats completely disrespectful.
im glad you throw tournaments and have helped grow the sport, but that only does so much before its run its course.

@pickax
i totally forgot about their other markets.

@ fathergod
how many people do you know that throw innova and how many throw disccraft. id say for me personally (including all the people ive met in tournaments) id say its about 80-90% innova. then add in all the companies innova makes discs for and its gotta be a money machine. and personally, i find that if you know how to pick your discs properly that every company is consistent. thats why i am so glad we have a local disc shop. also, from my experience discraft is far more consistent than innova. you can buy a buzzz today and 5years from now get one that flies the same. my rocs from various years are extremely inconsistent (all have similar domes and weights). 2006-2007 they did something to the Rocs and now they suck. ive got 20 some rocs sitting here that i dont even throw now cause i cant go replace my KC Pro with one i would want to throw.

[fathergod]

@jon

you obviously didnt READ my pm to you. i could care less about proving you wrong. you trivialized an argument because you disagree with it. thats completely disrespectful.
im glad you throw tournaments and have helped grow the sport, but that only does so much before its run its course.

@pickax
i totally forgot about their other markets.

@ fathergod
how many people do you know that throw innova and how many throw disccraft. id say for me personally (including all the people ive met in tournaments) id say its about 80-90% innova. then add in all the companies innova makes discs for and its gotta be a money machine. and personally, i find that if you know how to pick your discs properly that every company is consistent. thats why i am so glad we have a local disc shop. also, from my experience discraft is far more consistent than innova. you can buy a buzzz today and 5years from now get one that flies the same. my rocs from various years are extremely inconsistent (all have similar domes and weights). 2006-2007 they did something to the Rocs and now they suck. ive got 20 some rocs sitting here that i dont even throw now cause i cant go replace my KC Pro with one i would want to throw.

I completely disagree with Discraft being more consistent.  Ever tried throwing a flash?   Each mold will either be super overstable, stable, or understable.  Ask any of the Discraft pros besides Mark Ellis why they won't use it in tournaments and they will say its unreliable.  The spectra is another disc with problems, mainly its supercolor print that makes the dome really slippery.   Yeah, the buzz is a sweet disc but I'd put that disc up against a San Marino any day.

[smyith]

I completely disagree with Discraft being more consistent.  Ever tried throwing a flash?   Each mold will either be super overstable, stable, or understable.  Ask any of the Discraft pros besides Mark Ellis why they won't use it in tournaments and they will say its unreliable.  The spectra is another disc with problems, mainly its supercolor print that makes the dome really slippery.   Yeah, the buzz is a sweet disc but I'd put that disc up against a San Marino any day.

so your basing your statement on 2 discs??? im not sure about the flash but i know the spectra isn't popular at all. i can name numerous disc by a few manufacturers that are inconsistent. but at least we can all agree that gateway is the most inconsistent company out there

[stpitner]

Wow, I need to read some of these threads more often - this was a fantastic read!  The last time I had viewed the forum it was back on page 1, now on page 4 .  I know no one has posted here in over a month, but I have some intriguing comments that I'd like to add to the puzzle.

Disc golf is going to have a difficult time breaking off its stereotypes.  Too many people unfortunately use illegal substances, and unfortunately disc golf has been branded as the "hippie drug sport."  A lot of people live up to that stereotype.  How can you make it stop?  You can't entirely, but the beginning would be to make it cost more to play disc golf.  That would start trimming away those that can't afford both the drugs and the disc golf - and since drugs typically are the stronger addiction - they go that route.  There will still be those that have money (or their parents do) so they could pay the greens fees and still get their drugs.

However, right now it's going to be a LONG time before pay to play disc golf ever becomes a reality.  Why not?  Because there are so many free places to play!  Besides that, you'd have to make some VERY awesome courses in order to get people to hand over the cash to get going.

So how else can you draw someone to your pay to play course?  Unfortunately, that answer is alcohol.  I'd be very curious to see how much money comes in to a golf course that is greens fees and compare that to alcohol and food sales within the clubhouse.  It's guys that go out for some booze and while they are at it play 9 or 18 because it's relaxing (until you care about staying on the fairway and making your putt).  The advantage that ball golf courses have is that they ALL cost to play.  But you go, you hang out with your buddies, you get a round in, hang out some more, go home.  Because people are paying to play, the owners actually have some money to improve the course.  Disc golfers rely on park district to spend money and hope that they don't screw up the design with limited power to change the positions of where stuff goes.

Until you start seeing free courses going away in favor of pay to play and getting people actually out there, you won't start seeing other potential owners/investors want to start installing their own courses because there's no money to be made.  Once they start to see a potential for more money, then they might change their mind.

Why do people go to golf tournaments?  Sure you like to watch them play, but you are watching them make a LOT of cash.  Plus it's the top pros you are watching.  How many people go watch just an AM event?  I bet the numbers are far less.  I bet a lot of people that watch the pro's are thinking "I could do that" or "I wish I could do that" or "I want to teach my kid to like this and learn how to do this so that they could make the big bucks."  Why go to a disc golf tournament as a spectator when you can't make the big bucks?

So because of all of this, right now disc golf is going to be nothing but a casual, outdoor sport.  It's not easy enough to transport a course like you can transport a set of corn hole and set up bags tournaments.  Those things are easy to set up at a local bar.  i was at yorkville hometown days and they had about 30 sets of boards up one day for a bags tournament.  Just about everybody was drinking booze along with it.  ca-ching, ca-ching.

Until you get that clubhouse set up with another reason to come out there, you'd never get far with a pay to play.  You could make it an AWESOME course, and sure you'd get the hard core dgers out there.  But there aren't enough hard core players in order to make it a financial success.  You need those hackers/chuckers out there for yucks and a good time.


Anybody remember discgolftv.com?  They were a webcast company that was trying to cover tournaments and had a shot of the day etc etc etc.  It was Timmy Gill's business - don't see it anymore, do you?

[jasonc]

Scott,

You certainly added some intriguing comments.  I agree with most of what you are saying.  However, I'm not sure that disc golf is much different than ball golf except for the equipment we use.  Sure, ball golf has been around much longer, but I have played both and the social aspect including beverages consumed during play seems to be the same either way.  It appears to be quite obvious that the owners/operators of ball golf courses have their market dialed in as you stated by providing the clubhouse & alcohol.  Maybe disc golf just needs a little more time to evolve? 

Personally, I would love to have a local pay to play.  After playing 4 P2P disc golf courses in California last year, I now understand the difference between our typical park district courses and a real Disc Golf course.  I can't wait to see Highbridge, Flip City and the others.   

[Brad]

Last year I was playing ball golf 3 to 5 times a week.  The people I play with never drink.  The repeat players don't drink while playing they want to play good.  The booze does not pay for ball golf it brings the golfers in.  Five hours of riding in a cart without the wife with beer  sounds good 2 to 3 times a year.  These people help pay for the courses but we don't need them.

[smyith]

i really don't think making disc golf more expensive will help at all. that is one of the biggest draws of the sport, it essentially costs $8 to get started. thats awesome. now if you make that cost 20-30 you kill the market. i got started in high school. i didn't have much money at all back then. if it had cost me $20 to get started i can almost guarantee you that id still be standing in the street playing catch with an ultimate frisbee.
the drug factor at tournaments is an easy fix. it is against the rules to have them at tournaments and is an automatic DQ. so, people playing need to call them out and have them DQ'd from the tournament, no police involvement! that really sux and its lame but if you want to clean up the image thats a start.
i would love to see more P2P around here, when i lived in the Twin Cities we had a bunch of them to play. but too be completely honest, you still saw all the same activities you do at a non P2P except no course destruction. thats really the only benefit ive noticed. back when i played ball golf i drank heavily when i played, so did most of the people i played with (some of them were very good players). substance abuse is rampid in all sports and activities, you'll never get rid of it. all you can do is what the other professional sports do, enforce the rules on the competing players. Even the million dollar pros use drugs, they just dont do it during competition. why disc golf gets the short end of the stick is because our professional organization does nothing to shun the activity. once that starts to happen the image will improve.

[pdga#7648]

they are designing a pay 2 play course at wildlife prairie park close to Peoria. I will not pay money to play when McNaughton is a better course and its free. Pay 2 play courses will not get more into this sport!!

[Chainmeister]

I have mixed feelings on P2P disc golf. I think Disc Golf is an intriguing option to ball golf because it takes way less time to play and costs way less to play.  I think premium courses may succeed at P2P. But, where great courses already exist (Peoria) this will not work.  It certainly might work in the Chicago area as there are very few courses and there are fewer, if any, premium courses. Ball golf has been losing players during the recession. Its just too expensive. Disc golf probably does better in a recession.  How may players do you know who will tell you their rating went up when they were unemployed?  I like Scott's mention of the clubhouse as a big draw in ball golf.  I think a bar adjacent to or on a course would probably do very well.  Remember, there are serious ball golfers, but the bulk of the players are hacking up courses at golf outings and are likely paying more attention to the lass in the beer cart than the position of their ball.  I think an argument can be made that rank and file disc golfers are more serious than ball golfers.  Bowling may be a good example.  Bowling leagues are excuses to have cocktails while throwing a ball.  We've all been to disc golf leagues.  The difference is we wear better shoes I would love to see a bar and grill where I could get a sandwhich and a beer after a round sitting on the veranda watching other players on Hole 18.

[Sr.]

I have mixed feelings on P2P disc golf. I think Disc Golf is an intriguing option to ball golf because it takes way less time to play and costs way less to play.  I think premium courses may succeed at P2P. But, where great courses already exist (Peoria) this will not work.  It certainly might work in the Chicago area as there are very few courses and there are fewer, if any, premium courses. Ball golf has been losing players during the recession. Its just too expensive. Disc golf probably does better in a recession.  How may players do you know who will tell you their rating went up when they were unemployed?  I like Scott's mention of the clubhouse as a big draw in ball golf.  I think a bar adjacent to or on a course would probably do very well.  Remember, there are serious ball golfers, but the bulk of the players are hacking up courses at golf outings and are likely paying more attention to the lass in the beer cart than the position of their ball.  I think an argument can be made that rank and file disc golfers are more serious than ball golfers.  Bowling may be a good example.  Bowling leagues are excuses to have cocktails while throwing a ball.  We've all been to disc golf leagues.  The difference is we wear better shoes I would love to see a bar and grill where I could get a sandwhich and a beer after a round sitting on the veranda watching other players on Hole 18.

Can't agree more with you David but quit making me thirsty!
                                                                                                 

[dana]

Doug- have you ever played a pay to play course?





Would now be a good time to mention that I'm working on installing a DG course on a golf course in Ottawa, IL?
http://www.pinehillsgc.com/

[pdga#7648]

yes Dana, in Columbus Ohio in 1993. why does that matter?
I have a handful of challenging courses, McNaughton, Morton, ICC, Washington, Bradley. Why would I want to drive all the way out there, then pay to play when I have McNaughton 5 minutes from my house? Just doesn't make any logical sense. Now if the GPO is out there as an A-Tier, then sure I will pay to play, but for a casual round, no way am I paying money.( unless they take PFC Fun Bucks)
My luck, I would like it, then have to worry about them changing that course all around like they did McNaughton, and are in the process of doing to Morton.
Thay have plenty of room at McNaughton to set up another 18 holes out past the circle drive like they used to do for the Peoria Open in the late 90's. we played a 36 hole tournament there in like 95, 96, 97 and 98.

[smyith]

for P2P to work they have to offer something that free courses don't. Whether it be better facilities, clubhouse, or more challenging course...etc.
P2P is a tricky thing. Take Madison for example. You have 2 fantastic courses and 1 good course. One of the fantastic courses is a P2P and it still brings in tons of money. And not just from the "serious" golfers, i've seen alot of chuckers there. in the twin cities there are 4 (i think maybe 5) P2P and several stellar courses. All of the P2P courses are always bust with people as well as the non P2P. I think that for a successful P2P it is a must to have the population to draw from and make a truly quality course. Chicago Forest Preserve has the land to make several fantastic P2P courses. And i would think they would do well, if priced appropriately.
Ultimately though i don't think P2P is the way to growing the sport. thats not the reason people are drawn to disc golf.

[stpitner]

i really don't think making disc golf more expensive will help at all. that is one of the biggest draws of the sport, it essentially costs $8 to get started. thats awesome. now if you make that cost 20-30 you kill the market. i got started in high school. i didn't have much money at all back then. if it had cost me $20 to get started i can almost guarantee you that id still be standing in the street playing catch with an ultimate frisbee.
the drug factor at tournaments is an easy fix. it is against the rules to have them at tournaments and is an automatic DQ. so, people playing need to call them out and have them DQ'd from the tournament, no police involvement! that really sux and its lame but if you want to clean up the image thats a start.
i would love to see more P2P around here, when i lived in the Twin Cities we had a bunch of them to play. but too be completely honest, you still saw all the same activities you do at a non P2P except no course destruction. thats really the only benefit ive noticed. back when i played ball golf i drank heavily when i played, so did most of the people i played with (some of them were very good players). substance abuse is rampid in all sports and activities, you'll never get rid of it. all you can do is what the other professional sports do, enforce the rules on the competing players. Even the million dollar pros use drugs, they just dont do it during competition. why disc golf gets the short end of the stick is because our professional organization does nothing to shun the activity. once that starts to happen the image will improve.

I completely understand that people get into it because it is cheap.  However, it's never going to become a big time competitive professional sport unless people can make money while providing the sport.  A sponsor pays in money because they expect to get business back from it.  If they don't see the potential to make money, why spend money on it?  A park district has no incentive to put in a 5-star championship caliber course when a lame, 9-hole 1800 footer gets the job done for a "recreational activity".  It leaves the people that do care about disc golf frustrated, but we don't have the money to shell out to make it better.

I recently introduced a bunch of guys to the sport on a huge back yard.  I set up 4 pretty open temp holes - all about 220 - 300 ft.  I had one guy step up to play because he knew I was in business with it and wanted to learn more about it.  He absolutely fell in love with it, but thought at first he was going to hate it.  He was throwing 200+ backhand and forehand right from the start with a Champ Leopard that I gave him to use.  He told me that he thought it was just throwing a regular Frisbee, where was the fun in that?  But once he realized there were drivers, mid's, putters, and they were a LOT heavier, he wanted to play more.  He wound up playing the set of 4 holes 3 times with me before getting dark.  Nobody else played more than once or twice around.

I bring that story up to mention another key factor that people have already stated, but it's worth stating again: EDUCATION.  Spreading the GOOD word about the sport, not the stereotypes.  Those cheap-o Frisbees that get handed out with corporate logos on them will always drive me nuts because that's always what I think about first when you say a Frisbee.  You can never throw them far and break like they are nothing.  I was out at 2 festivals this year, and I'm setting up at another one a week from this Saturday.  The one in Oswego had decent recognition of the sport - probably about 30-40% of the people I talked to were aware of the sport.  At the Taste of Lombard I had probably about 65% recognition - it helped that I was right on the course though!  Take it to a town where disc golf does not exist and it's a LOT tougher.  I have had a LOT of youth approach me and tell me "oh yeah, we did this in school."  That's an excellent thing.  They just don't realize where all of the courses are out there, and in some cases practically right in their back yard!

oh what I wish I could do with money won from a lottery...   buy some land, set up some NICE courses, and then if the lottery winnings was big enough, drop enough in the pool to make sure 1st place at a huge NT tournament on my courses took home a million bucks.  That might get some people out

[RichardRudzena]

Since were all chiming in on the P2P issue ill tag along


I am pro P2P all day. It is part of growing the sport. (i disagree Adam).

It is absolutely pushing the sport by creating more revenue for the course that you are playing to play. How many times have you played lippold and said to your self. Man this hole could be made better or i wish they would put in concrete tees. or get rid of the pea gravel or how bout a bench of every hole or a garbage can bathrooms??

By having a pay to play course you have a bit of revenue towards course improvements. Otherwise its left to the clubs responsibility to provide the funds for any improvements...

At public parks where disc golf is there they DO NOT create any revenue for the community even though they get lots of attention from the people that live in the town it still does not become any sort of priority for the white collar people in charge of how spending occurs.

This brings me to private courses which are pay to play by some respect weather its just a donation or an actual pro shop collecting greens fees to walk on the course.  Now if you haven't played blue ribbon pines then i strongly suggest you do so. It was the most beautifully manicured course i have ever seen.

It was said earlier about the amount of people who play Golf and care about how they play to the guys just there for an outing only caring to have a few drinks and have fun....

This is no different from disc golf... The 45000 plus pdga members is just a small percent of the people who play.. Most of the people who play are there cause they can get out n have a few beers burn one and throw a disc... Most who don't really care. As a functioning member of the disc golf industry i can say for every one single pdga member i have walk in my shop and buy some thing each week i have 100 chuckers.

In order to grow the sport more P2P courses need to open, More pro shops need to pop up... Ones that cater to the casual player not just the tournament player. We all need to make it "COOL" wear your disc golf clothes every where you go. Play with casuals, and be a ambassador of the sport at all times....

And always ALWAYS hit an ace in front of chuckers it gets them all sorts of riled up!!!!!! hahaha

Cant wait to see all of you guys at the Hunt for Halloween at lippold OCT 24 1 day b teir

[smyith]

I still disagree. P2P will evolve the game not make it grow. Right now awareness/education, and marketing will grow the sport at the rate we all want. the P2P courses will take it to the next level after that. If the awareness is greatly increased then more people will get out there and try. i think one of the best examples is right in our own area. the high schools having disc golf clubs is huge!!! but in my little exposure to who's there, alot of the avid chuckers aren't playing in the club. i'd like to see more involvement from those chuckers who aren't there. They already have the interest. I would ultimate like to see these HS disc golf clubs to become more of a disc golf team, and travel with the team and play other schools. The club i work with recently got approved use of buses through the school. With the relatively small interest (but growing) we have already to get that just shows that the schools are willing to help us out. If we get them started in high school, learning proper etiquette and technique it will bring a more "positive" marketing demographic to several more companies.
Like in all aspects of life, education is the means to change. Without it we are doomed to repeat the same cycle we have exsisted on for the last several thousand years. Someones gotta get someone with money off the ball golf course and onto the disc golf course.