The Future of Disc Golf?

[Dan Michler]

In response to smyith's comment about 'Why does Keen or Merrell or other big companies not get more involved in disc golf financially?'

Yes, a large percentage of competitive disc golfers do use these products.  What is there, maybe 20,000-50,000 'competitive' disc golfers in the world?  More people than that are employed just by the place I work!  Big companies do not spend their money advertising to 50,000 or even 100,000 people.  When there are 10 million people in the United States playing disc golf avidly, then you will see some bigger companies want to get involved.  Until then, you need to realize that disc golf, while very important to you and myself, is not a popular game.  Most people still have no clue what it even is, much less actually play the game!

And I'm not sure how Innova throwing $50k at a purse is going to make potential sponsors take notice.  You'll have to explain the logic in that statement for me...

[Moderator's Note: Dan did not start this topic. This topic was spun off from the USDGC thread. I thought that it was important to keep the USDGC thread on subject because it is an important subject. This topic that spun off has had some interesting ideas so I thought it would be good to keep the posts. It just happened that Dan's post seemed like a good jumping off point to a new topic.]

[smyith]

In response to smyith's comment about 'Why does Keen or Merrell or other big companies not get more involved in disc golf financially?'

Yes, a large percentage of competitive disc golfers do use these products.  What is there, maybe 20,000-50,000 'competitive' disc golfers in the world?  More people than that are employed just by the place I work!  Big companies do not spend their money advertising to 50,000 or even 100,000 people.  When there are 10 million people in the United States playing disc golf avidly, then you will see some bigger companies want to get involved.  Until then, you need to realize that disc golf, while very important to you and myself, is not a popular game.  Most people still have no clue what it even is, much less actually play the game!

And I'm not sure how Innova throwing $50k at a purse is going to make potential sponsors take notice.  You'll have to explain the logic in that statement for me...

Its not about exposure with competitive players. its about exposing them to the disc golf community as a whole (including the chuckers). Thinking that their only interest is those who play competitively is asinine. Innova doesn't make its money off of competitive players, it makes it off the schmuck who buys his discs from the gas station. Merrel doesn't make money off their Iron Man team, they make it off the random people who buy their product year in and out. You use the competitive players to promote your product to the non-competitive masses.
Why i say they need to "throw" money at the sport, is something that Jim Rome said about disc golf. (Gross summary) There are 2 main reasons that this sport isn't on a larger scale 1) Stoners and drunks are who mainstream America think dgers are and 2) there is no money in being a professional. If large corporations get involved and bring money to the sport then more people will get interested. Kind of like the "build it and they will come" mentality.
Ball golf wasn't anything until someone started throwing money at it. And as soon as that happened it blew up. All its gonna take to make disc golf a multi-million dollar industry is to clean up its image (ball golf had to combat the view/image that only "elites" can play) and to make it worth ($) playing the sport. You think Tiger Woods would have gone anywhere in golf it wasn't worth lots of $? Or LeBron James in basketball? No they wouldn't have. The only people playing disc competitively are those of us who truly love the sport.
I spent alot of time studying the history of human existence. And since the day currency replaced the barter system there has been one truth; MONEY MAKES THE WORLD GO ROUND. Its just how it is. To think that there is any other way to do it, is idiotic.

[pdga#7648]

very well put.
this game will never get the $ that ball golf has for his 1st reason.
everyone I tell what sport I play the most. They always reply, so you smoke dope?? We have been tarnished as a hippie sport. Big time corporations will never throw alot of money for a bunch of stoners( or low lifes as they see it)
Not saying all of us smoke pot, but the majority that play this game, do indeed. Even the Top Pros on the NT do it.

Just ask yourself this... if you were the CEO of Chevy or Ford, would you throw out $100,000 towards a disc golf tourny? I highly doubt it.
We are stuck at playing the game, for the love of it, and for the competition. No one will retire rich, from playing disc golf alone.
I read Avery Jenkins bio on facebook. Since 2000, he has made a little over $160,000. I have tripled that and then some at my job that I started at in 2000. Out of his $160,000, how much has he spent in gas, flights, hotels, and entry fees?? Or do his sponsors pay for all of that?
Anyone that thinks they will get rich playing disc, is DREAMING!

[Dan Michler]

2) there is no money in being a professional. If large corporations get involved and bring money to the sport then more people will get interested. Kind of like the "build it and they will come" mentality

Large corporations are supposed to throw tons of money at disc golf to try and build the sport up?  This is how ball golf became big, really?  Well I'm not going to hold my breath for that to happen!

[Chainmeister]

2) there is no money in being a professional. If large corporations get involved and bring money to the sport then more people will get interested. Kind of like the "build it and they will come" mentality

Large corporations are supposed to throw tons of money at disc golf to try and build the sport up?  This is how ball golf became big, really?  Well I'm not going to hold my breath for that to happen!

Televsion. Thats is what would bring in money.  I want to watch. You want to watch.  The networks seem to think nobody else wants to watch. I thought beach volleyball had the idea.  Take attractive athletes and put skimpy uniforms on them. (Nikko will have to take his upshot from the brambles. That's going to hurt...) Beach volleyball is folding. http://www.examiner.com/beach-volleyball-in-national/ex-avp-beach-volleyball-executives-explain-tour-s-exodus I have no clue what would work.

[smyith]

2) there is no money in being a professional. If large corporations get involved and bring money to the sport then more people will get interested. Kind of like the "build it and they will come" mentality

Large corporations are supposed to throw tons of money at disc golf to try and build the sport up?  This is how ball golf became big, really?  Well I'm not going to hold my breath for that to happen!

Televsion. Thats is what would bring in money.  I want to watch. You want to watch.  The networks seem to think nobody else wants to watch. I thought beach volleyball had the idea.  Take attractive athletes and put skimpy uniforms on them. (Nikko will have to take his upshot from the brambles. That's going to hurt...) Beach volleyball is folding. http://www.examiner.com/beach-volleyball-in-national/ex-avp-beach-volleyball-executives-explain-tour-s-exodus I have no clue what would work.

Thats what Jim Rome was saying though. Disc golf will not be on TV until it changes its image and gets more money. Volleyball isn't a fair comparison. its an Olympic sport. it doesn't have a tarnished image like us.

[Jon Brakel]

Ball golf wasn't anything until someone started throwing money at it. And as soon as that happened it blew up.

What year are you talking about here?

this game will never get the $ that ball golf has for his 1st reason.
everyone I tell what sport I play the most. They always reply, so you smoke dope?? We have been tarnished as a hippie sport. Big time corporations will never throw alot of money for a bunch of stoners( or low lifes as they see it)
Not saying all of us smoke pot, but the majority that play this game, do indeed. Even the Top Pros on the NT do it.

Dope is not holding back this sport. Just the same as it is not holding back snowboarding. Olympian snowboarders smoke dope...while at the Olympics!

[pdga#7648]

If disc golfers were playing for a purse comparable to the PGA tours winnings, all disc golfers would be drug tested, just as the real golfers are. Therefore, half of our competitiors would fail the tests, or quit the sport competitively.

Snowboarders smoke while at the Olympics? Have you seen them passing a joint around?

If you really think, the dope smoking is not holding this sport back, you should wake up and smell the roses Jon. We are tarnished as a hippie, dope smoking sport. Large corporations know this, therefore, no BIG MONEY for those people!

[smyith]

Ball golf wasn't anything until someone started throwing money at it. And as soon as that happened it blew up.

What year are you talking about here?

this game will never get the $ that ball golf has for his 1st reason.
everyone I tell what sport I play the most. They always reply, so you smoke dope?? We have been tarnished as a hippie sport. Big time corporations will never throw alot of money for a bunch of stoners( or low lifes as they see it)
Not saying all of us smoke pot, but the majority that play this game, do indeed. Even the Top Pros on the NT do it.

Dope is not holding back this sport. Just the same as it is not holding back snowboarding. Olympian snowboarders smoke dope...while at the Olympics!

From what i remember, golf didn't really become what is today until the early 1900s when it transfered from a "gentlemans" game into a sport for all.

i can't find the article i've been referring to at work, ill have to wait til i get home to post a link. Image is what i am refering to. Our image is self imposed. Just watch some of the videos that are out (excluding Clash Series). Its a lame clip show that looks like some stoned out drunk idiot was sitting behind his computer piecing it together. IMAGE is everything in the mainstream. Snowboarding is not a good analogy for this, it became an Olympic sport because of the large amount of people across the planet who compete and participate, they had no choice but to add it. Snowboarding is also more appealing because of its entertainment value. You don't have to know anything about it or even participate to want to watch some of the cool stuff they do. Also, snowboarding companies invested alot of money into their sport to build it up. they put millions into the professional side of the sport. Similar to how skateboarding and other "X-games" type sports did. Back in the 80s the only companies sponsoring their competitions were the manufacturers of their gear. no one else. Disc golf's manufacturers are holding the sport back. i honestly don't think they want to be huge. thats more work for them to do. it sounds more and more like their "lazy" (lack of a better word) and happy with their current income. Too be honest i think that getting a ball golf company involved in the sport may not be a bad idea. maybe even proposition the Golf channel about airing footage. the sports are very similar and it would open another market to them.

I'll give the best example i can for how Image changes everything. The Civil Rights movement (not the *beep*ing hippies). The young black youth of the 50s and early 60s understood that they have to change the image that mainstream (at the time white America) had of them. How did they do it, by being completely non-violent and pointing out the ridiculousness of the situation across state and cultural lines. The boys in Greensboro, NC who sat down at a Whites Only counter and refused to move changed everything. The got mass media interested. Rosa Parks and few others made small appearance and had minor affect but the Greensboro boys really did it right. Mainstream America, outside of the south, saw how ridiculous the laws were and how civil the black youths were being and the savageness with which the southern whites approached the situation. That changed their image from being 3/5ths of a person to a full person.

So essentially there are two things that need to be done for this sport 1) we as a community, including the chuckers, need to be more conscious of our image and how non-dgers view us 2) the sports manufacturers need to dish out the money, just like the "xtreme" (LOL!!!!!) sports did to put themselves on the media map.

I have a question: has a smaller sports station been approached for taping and airing a disc golf tournament? Say like Comcast SportsNet? Its local and i've seen lots of random sports showing on their. ESPN isn't going to care about us, they have so much already they don't care about adding something small. I've given lots of thought to this subject. Bring a large event to the Chicago area and ask Comcast SportsNet if they would like to come cover the tournament. My guess is that they'll want money to do it but would actually do it. Instead of trying to create a national media market for it, why not try to start a local media market. It can grow on its own from there. Plus, if it gets on TV and has descent ratings companies WILL invest. On the money to pay them to do it. We could organize all the area clubs to start raising funds and work together to make it happen. Even get those WISCO boys involved.

[smyith]

If disc golfers were playing for a purse comparable to the PGA tours winnings, all disc golfers would be drug tested, just as the real golfers are. Therefore, half of our competitiors would fail the tests, or quit the sport competitively.

Snowboarders smoke while at the Olympics? Have you seen them passing a joint around?

If you really think, the dope smoking is not holding this sport back, you should wake up and smell the roses Jon. We are tarnished as a hippie, dope smoking sport. Large corporations know this, therefore, no BIG MONEY for those people!

Did some snowboard get his Medal taken away for testing positive for THC? im almost positive.

[Jon Brakel]

If disc golfers were playing for a purse comparable to the PGA tours winnings, all disc golfers would be drug tested, just as the real golfers are. Therefore, half of our competitiors would fail the tests, or quit the sport competitively.

Snowboarders smoke while at the Olympics? Have you seen them passing a joint around?

If you really think, the dope smoking is not holding this sport back, you should wake up and smell the roses Jon. We are tarnished as a hippie, dope smoking sport. Large corporations know this, therefore, no BIG MONEY for those people!

The PGA's drug test is to find player's that are using performance enhancing drugs like steroids, not pot. The PGA commissioner even said that the PGA would have the authority to NOT enforce penalties for "recreational" drugs. If the PGA suspended players for smoking pot, they would probably also lose a huge number of their field.

There was a big scandal about a Canadian player, at the Olympics where snowboarding was first an official sport (what was that 2 or 3 Olympics ago?), who was caught with a bag of weed. Canada was going to throw him off the team and send him home when several snowboarders from the U.S. and Canada came forward and said that if they were kicking players off the teams for smoking pot, that they could start with them...and then end with all of them! It is as well known that snowboarding is a pot head sport as disc golf is. This is a pot head nation!

We have not lost any sponsors because of pot use. We don't have sponsors because we aren't big enough and we don't have any spectators.

There are 17,000 golf courses in the U.S. and most of them are busy every weekend and every weekday evening. There are 3000 disc golf courses in the U.S. Many of them are used infrequently. If you go to a golf course at 7am on a Saturday there will be a line of people ready to tee off. If you go to a disc golf course on a Saturday (as long as there's no tournament) and you'll have the course to yourself. There are a couple of disc golf courses in the area that will be busy for a couple of hours in the middle of the day on the weekends but there aren't any disc golf courses that are busy every day, all day on the weekends like most ball golf courses.

Players = potential spectators (or viewers on TV). We need more players and more courses for those players to play on. And we need courses that can challenge players to continually get better. Once a casual player can deuce a hole, what role can that hole play in the evolution of their game? I think too easy courses are as much to blame for people taking up disc golf and then moving on a few years later as much as anything. If we could retain more players the sport would grow much quicker.

There will always be sponsors willing to sponsor a sport when the money is there. Players = money. Sponsors are buying the attention of spectators and players  just like advertising. They aren't going to sponsor a "show" that only has 1000 viewers...they're going to sponsor a show that has a million or more viewers.

[Dan Michler]

If you really think, the dope smoking is not holding this sport back, you should wake up and smell the roses Jon. We are tarnished as a hippie, dope smoking sport. Large corporations know this, therefore, no BIG MONEY for those people!

What large corporation has considered 'throwing money' at disc golf, but then decided against it because of its tarnished dope smoking image?

I honestly don't think any large corporations have even considered disc golf as a potential hotbed for marketing campaigns, for the same reason that they haven't considered sponsoring croquet tournaments.    Not that many people actually play disc golf.....  

What is there a couple thousand courses in the country?  I think we may get there someday, but its not going to happen right now just because we want it to.  More and more courses keep getting installed and more people keep getting exposed to the great game of disc golf.  Eventually this number of people playing the game will get large enough that the exposure that comes with being heavily involved with disc golf would make it worthwhile for a larger company to invest in the game somehow.  This doesn't necessarily mean we will have a professional class of players on the level of major professional sports, but I do think we'll eventually reach a status on par with something like snowboarding which Jon brought up.  But that time is probably not going to be in the immediate future. If I just ask around with the people here at work, a low percentage know what disc golf is, unless I already talked to them about it.  A very very low percentage have actually played the game.  And I work in Lake County which has a ton of courses.

I think there are alot of people out there with similar opinions to smyith.  That somehow the PDGA or Innova and Discraft are not doing the right things to bring big money into the game.  Those people just need to exercise a little more patience and realize how small this game still is.

[Jon Brakel]

If disc golfers were playing for a purse comparable to the PGA tours winnings, all disc golfers would be drug tested, just as the real golfers are. Therefore, half of our competitiors would fail the tests, or quit the sport competitively.

Snowboarders smoke while at the Olympics? Have you seen them passing a joint around?

If you really think, the dope smoking is not holding this sport back, you should wake up and smell the roses Jon. We are tarnished as a hippie, dope smoking sport. Large corporations know this, therefore, no BIG MONEY for those people!

Did some snowboard get his Medal taken away for testing positive for THC? im almost positive.

Nope! All the pot smoking snow boarders laughed at Canada until the Canadian Olympic committee dropped the issue.

[jasonc]

If you really think, the dope smoking is not holding this sport back, you should wake up and smell the roses Jon. We are tarnished as a hippie, dope smoking sport. Large corporations know this, therefore, no BIG MONEY for those people!

Your belief here only helps perpetuate the myth.  Has the NFL, NBA, etc been held back by the small # of professional athletes who make headlines for being arrested for DUI, possession, etc?  

I'm not so sure about that logic.  Keep in mind that these "incidents" have been around as long as their respective sports.  The only difference today is our access via media & interweb to the meaningless headlines.  

Every sport, profession, activity, etc will always have the law abiding participants and the others that tend to bend and/or break the rules.  Disc golf is not exclusive to smokers, drinkers or anyone else.  

[smyith]

I think there are alot of people out there with similar opinions to smyith.  That somehow the PDGA or Innova and Discraft are not doing the right things to bring big money into the game.  Those people just need to exercise a little more patience and realize how small this game still is.

Thats just it, they are holding it back. Especially with this recent BS about the USDGC.
Skateboarding is a perfect analogy for disc golf. In the 70s and early 80s when it started to become a professional sport. The skateboard companies ran by skateboarders fueled the sport and drove it into the media and made it worth sponsoring and money. They dumped thousands into it with the hope theyd see a return. it took a few years but they got their return and then some.
Professional skateboarding and professional disc golf began at nearly the same time. Both had a lack of parks to play their game. Both have worked hard to provide more parks. The difference between where they made it to in the past 3 decades and were we made it to is simple. Their community put the money into the sport ot get the return. Skateboarders did and still do have an image of being stoners and mischievous. but they did it. we can too, we just need the companies with the money in our community to stop looking at the investment as a loss. its not a loss if it grows the sprt. Corses and players will come if the money is there.

[pdga#7648]

If you really think, the dope smoking is not holding this sport back, you should wake up and smell the roses Jon. We are tarnished as a hippie, dope smoking sport. Large corporations know this, therefore, no BIG MONEY for those people!

What large corporation has considered 'throwing money' at disc golf, but then decided against it because of its tarnished dope smoking image?

I can't tell you which one in particular, but when was the PDGA formed? At least 20 years ago? Whats the biggest amount of money donated to a pro purse by a sponsor not affiliated with disc golf?



Ford, Chevy, Pepsi, etc, etc, etc, don't have squat to do with the NBA, NFL, MLB, or even snowboarding, but they sponsor the events. And probably kick in alot of money for it.


It's my opinion, right or wrong. But I have been in the PDGA since 1994, and have seen where it has got since then. Not far enough is the bottom line.  

Not here to argue with anyone. I just know what I see at every tournament I ever go to, Worlds included.

[fathergod]

   My father was involved in politics for over 25 years up to when he passed away earlier this year.  Some of you might remember him as John Schulien who served as a Trustee for the City of Libertyville and as a Lake County Precinct Committeemen.
Having grown up in politics and making my own political connections, I can absolutely tell you that the general belief among politicians and the public is that disc golf players are nothing more than weed smokers.  They also believe that the sport doesn't contribute anything to the public which is why Adler hasn't replaced their baskets for years.  I spoke to Terry Wheepler who is the Mayor of Libertyville and he said it took about three days to find the old 9 baskets that were pulled many years ago.  The parks district didn't even realize they still had them!   He said he would go out to Adler with the Parks supervisor to look at what needs to be replaced but I haven't heard a word since from him.  I've spoken to the Forest Preserve board many times at different functions and they all told me they wouldn't support disc golf on any of their lands as they do not want a bunch of pot smokers damaging the land nor does the public want the Forest Preserve to spend any money on making a course.

[smyith]

I can't tell you which one in particular, but when was the PDGA formed? At least 20 years ago? Whats the biggest amount of money donated to a pro purse by a sponsor not affiliated with disc golf?



Ford, Chevy, Pepsi, etc, etc, etc, don't have squat to do with the NBA, NFL, MLB, or even snowboarding, but they sponsor the events. And probably kick in alot of money for it.


It's my opinion, right or wrong. But I have been in the PDGA since 1994, and have seen where it has got since then. Not far enough is the bottom line.  

Not here to argue with anyone. I just know what I see at every tournament I ever go to, Worlds included.

I had an issue with this a couple years. I felt that the PDGA wasn't doing anything to progress the sport (and i still don't) so i didn't sign up for a couple years because i didn't want to give an organization money that didn't have the same goals and values in mind that i and several others i know do. My love for the game and desire to compete brought me back. I still don't want to give the PDGA a dime to be honest. Although, I'm very happy with who won the Board positions this year, hopefully they can change it up. <fingers crossed>

[smyith]

   My father was involved in politics for over 25 years up to when he passed away earlier this year.  Some of you might remember him as John Schulien who served as a Trustee for the City of Libertyville and as a Lake County Precinct Committeemen.
Having grown up in politics and making my own political connections, I can absolutely tell you that the general belief among politicians and the public is that disc golf players are nothing more than weed smokers.  They also believe that the sport doesn't contribute anything to the public which is why Adler hasn't replaced their baskets for years.  I spoke to Terry Wheepler who is the Mayor of Libertyville and he said it took about three days to find the old 9 baskets that were pulled many years ago.  The parks district didn't even realize they still had them!   He said he would go out to Adler with the Parks supervisor to look at what needs to be replaced but I haven't heard a word since from him.  I've spoken to the Forest Preserve board many times at different functions and they all told me they wouldn't support disc golf on any of their lands as they do not want a bunch of pot smokers damaging the land nor does the public want the Forest Preserve to spend any money on making a course.

I've lived in 4 different states since i've been a dger. Illinois takes the cake BY FAR for course destruction and litter. The chuckers here are unlike any others. I can't tell you how many i have chased off the course in my time playing (literally i chased them out of the park). I remeber once, me and my brother were following this group of kids who were a couple holes in fron tof us. We started noticing beer bottles being left by the baskets (course had garbage cans). We yelled at them for it and told them to pick it up. They made some smart as remark and then before i knew it my brother, who had been collecting their bottles, started pitching at them (almost hit'em too). They made a threat towards us and we started to run down the fairway at them and they took off for their car like bats outta hell. haha.

[Jon Brakel]

Corses and players will come if the money is there.

Cart before horse.

More players will build a base of consumers. Sponsorship is just another form of advertising. Advertisers don't invest in sports with the hopes that one day there will be enough interest to pay off for them. Advertisers buy consumers attention. Increase the disc golf consumer base and sponsors will follow. There is no short cut to this formula.